Classified specs leaked on War Thunder forum for third time
source link: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/classified-specs-leaked-on-war-thunder-forum-for-third-time/
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WarThunder is a popular MMO military vehicle combat game, one that draws a large and fervent fan base. The game developers also host a forum for fans of the game to talk, and frequently debate, about the specifications and abilities of various vehicles modelled in the game.
Recently, WarThunder has added more historically recent vehicles to the game, ones that remain in service with major armies. This, combined with a fervent, technicality familiar fanbase, has led to a few major leaks of classified technical information, affecting both the Challenger 2 and Leclerc MBTs.
Now the same fate befalls a non-NATO main battle tank. On the 31st of May, images reposted online show that a user posted an image of a Chinese DTC10-125 tungsten penetrator sitting on a technical document describing the specifications of the projectile.
The document, shown above, appears to outline the armour penetration figures against both composite and RHA armour, muzzle velocity at ambient temperature, and dispersion. A technical diagram and handling instructions are also outlined on the document. Some of the information has appeared on the internet before in brochures and claims from the PLA, but this appears to be the first images of internal documentation.
The DTC10-125 can be fired from the ZTZ 96, 96A, 99, 99A, and is one of the PLAs main tank killing rounds.
WarThunder forum moderators quickly removed the post, adding “Materials related to the DTC10-125 are classified in China”. Some reports state that the image has popped up previously on Chinese forums, though this remains unconfirmed due to heavy Chinese internet controls. The document cannot be independently verified at this point, but the projectile resting on it appears to be a genuine DTC10-125.
You can read about a gamer identifying as a Challenger 2 commander posting a classified document online in order to improve the accuracy of the design of the tank by clicking here and you can also read about a French Army tank crewman leaking a portion of the Leclerc Main Battle Tank’s classified manual on the forum by clicking here.
It is indeed regrettable that classified info on the Challenger and Leclerk has been leaked.
However, espionage is a game that all sides play and whoever provided this extremely interesting data on the Chinese DTC10-125 tungsten penetrator should be encouraged to provide further information – to enable the game developers to make their game even more realistic, of course.
I suspect the western armies have had this info from the get go, so its only really the general public that is finding info on the classified material.
I am afraid you do not understand the damage this could do. The fact the West has this information may be very sensitive and put our assets at risk for a game!
If this unauthorised leak comes from a British service man he/she should be dismissed. Also possibly charged under the OSA.
The people who need to be dismissed are the incompetent donkeys running the MoD. Have you seen the latest, absolutely scathing HoC Public Accounts Committee report on the Ajax fiasco?
And you appear to not understand the implications of Rob’s post.
Having classified information on a potential opponents capabilities is of most use when that opponent is unaware that you have it.
It seems the intelligence community are full of gammers.
Gammers – the term for people who eat to much gammon 😂😂😂😂😂
OT, but more procurement is being delayed as the order for new Chinooks has delayed by 3 years. Chinooks… 2030. BMD… 2029. T45 CAMM… 2027. FC/ASW… 2030. Is there anything we’re actually going to get in time before another war breaks out? Plainly put; it’s shortsighted and idiotic.
We are currently going through austerity, just the government don’t want to call it that becasue Boris partially got to power saying it was a bad policy and didnt’ work. There has been a lot of cuts across the board on the public service and i expect more to come.
I completely agree on the evaluation that this is austerity… but having completed an economics degree at Oxford I should think it’s clear as day to anyone with common sense that now, especially with the world on the brink of a stagflation caused recession, is not the time for any sort of reduced spending. If anything, national spending should increase to provide a further boost to the economy. Particularly in the defence sector, which DOES generate many jobs, is integrated into the larger manufacturing and technology sectors usually develops things that help other parts of the economy (particularly those two),… Read more »
The government has as always got themselves into a corner because of all the extreme groups in the backbenchers. They can’t increase tax, they can’t increase borrowing, they can’t admit that brexit isnt’ going to plan, they can’t admit that covid is still around and hitting productivity and so they are stuck having to make shadow cuts hoping no one notices.
They are not in control of events. We seldom are. For the most part we can only react. The government response to Brexit nas been to be positive ( rose tinted specs?); to try to replace the lost exports by resurrecting empire trading relationships and accelerating the growth of high tech jobs by offering preferential immigration terms to highly qualified graduates from overseas. Meanwhile the lorry queues in Kent stretch for miles, UK is being frozen out of the EU Horizon network, we are bulldozing good pork into burial pits and castigating the haulage industry because it doesn’t pay decent… Read more »
Not entirely true, our economy is suffering the worst of the g7 nations becasue our goverment fails to act constantly. Even a perfect goverment would still be in a similar mess but not as bad. As for resurrecting former ties, the trade deals with have got with Austria/NZ/Canada are worse than they gave the EU, so that worked well.
Fair point, but it is factual. We have to understand what is going on to understand why delays / cuts happen.
Let’s hope the public sector cuts won’t result in further defence cuts, although giving stuff to ukraine and not replacing it will have same effect of reducing costs.
There is a grain off truth saying that policy is neither clear no consistent
If you want the private sector to invest you need clear signposts that it is safe to do so.
Stealth tax raids are the opposite. Unsubtle hints of how the energy companies should have invested in UK would have done more. Let’s face it with sky high energy prices shareholders are not going to be too concerned about investing in renewables etc and you can make a convincing spreadsheet with valid ROI.
We’re not suffering that badly, let’s not inflate the problem for mere political reasons. We are struggling because of energy policy and failure to invest 20 years ago, in a new fleet of nuclear power stations. The engineering institutions were all warning in 1997 we needed to start planning for this, but it wasn’t until the coalition government that we started to invest. Canada has its tar shale. The US was a global energy exporter until 2020, Germany is still hooked on Russian energy, France has a very high installed nuclear base. Italy hasn’t grown for most of its membership… Read more »
US infation is high but so is their GDP growth, ours is barly above pre covid levels, their is over 10% higher. No doubt all nations are suffering, but considering we had less reliance on Russian oil than our european neighbours we should have been suffering less but the reverse is true.
That is because the EU is still using Russian oil and gas and we are not. The EU have decided to keep paying for the Russian war machine while we are not.
The EU have no choice, there is no alternative to piped energy from Russia in the short to medium term. No infrastructure in place and it will cost billions to create it. What is crazy is India buying lots of Russian crude and then selling it into the EU, or cargoes being transhipped at sea to turn it into non Russian. Better still, Poland buying ‘German’ gas when there are no German gas fields. At least our Government has just given the long delayed OK to a new Shell gas field in the North Sea but we won’t see the… Read more »
To be honest – I voted for Brexit…for this mess. It was plainly obvious this trouble was going to come but it is a necessary evil, like raising interest rates, to get profligate British industry to wake up. Productivity has been stagnating for years, investment in the workforce is miserable and conditions haven’t been improving especially well – this after 40 yrs of EU membership. Frankly, I think managers became lazy and the default attitude was to hire a skilled individual from the EU, for less money and ignore the underlying issues. Making life harder and reducing the easy supply… Read more »
I had the pleasure of sharing a flight from Honduras to El Salvador with a Geezer from the British government (we were both flying to meet up with the British embassy there) and he revealed a very interesting snippet about British industry, he stated that we are far too lazy when it comes to trade and expect others to come to us. He cited the Defender, Discovery and Range Rover class of vehicles which research had shown would sell across central and South America, and yet instead of pitching themselves across the region, they expected buyers to come to them,… Read more »
What is more interesting is the political establishment’s response to this (perceived) laziness. Their strategy is based on a combination of incentivising greed and stepping up sanctions. We see a similar approach in the NHS and Education: lots of well paid admin jobs to managers whose job it is to step up and continue the beatings until morale improves. These strategies produce short lived surface improvements, a knighthood for the managers and a spiralling downwards of morale in the workforce. The problem is not so much with British Industry ( or with British medics and teachers). The problem is a… Read more »
Considering Landrover is owned by Tata, one of the largest companies in the world and Indian, comparing them to british industry is clearly a difficut comparision. The issue is most of our industry isn’t British its foreign owned and so the idea that british mentality has any sway doesn’t stack up. Expansion/investments in new countries costs a lot of money and unless a company is sure it will pay off they won’t try. Unforuntely British companies (what is left of them) don’t get fully supported by the government unlike say US, German, France companies (our goverment rarely steps in to… Read more »
If only we could avail ourselves to the protections of the WTO’s non [trade] discrimination rules and its already established trade dispute mechanisms to sort out any disproportionate checks by our neighbours but unfortunately the ‘must have’ (aka Benn Act) EU–UK Trade Agreement precludes its use.
The UK isn’t doing bad considering the international headwinds ,UK GDP grew by 0.8% in Q1 22 while the EU grew by 0.4%, the Eurozone grew by 0.3% and the USA’s GDP for Q1 was -1.4%.
No country can afford sustained defence spending if its economy isn’t generating the wealth to do so.
If we spend more, inflation will rise causing a collapse in consumer demand and eventually recession – with more debt (presumably), and possibly at that time more civil disorder, inflation does seem to have that effect. If we don’t spend a recession will get us earlier but will likely be less onerous than one a little later down the line. We are damned if we do and damned if we don’t and there will be no soft landing. Once jobs are being lost, demand is falling and inflation with it, counter-cyclical investment would be sensible but surely not now with… Read more »
It’s basic Keynesian economics, and a recession is always caused by too little spending. Usually, in Western countries with market economies, government spending is too little a proportion of GDP to be able on its own to prevent a recession. However, government spending is often able to stimulate public spending and deliver greater confidence in the economy until consumers regain their will/ability to spend more. A recession that will happen now will be no less onerous than one that happens in a year, but I can tell you that a recession overall is avoidable. Fundamentally, inflation alone is not reason… Read more »
Spot on. Inflation is caused by too much demand chasing too little supply. If we have a recession it won’t be because of inadaquate demand.
Austerity? so the Government is cutting expenses? the budget is less than last year? The debt is decreasing?
No idea on the expense this year or last, it’s not been published by the ONS. Debt however year is increasing significantly
Let’s hope there’s no serious conflict between now and later on that requires all this delayed equipment! You can ask the simple question, does actually delaying something actually save any real money, if not, then don’t delay it or minimise the delay. There might be other issues but don’t get me (or others here) started on those AShMs! And the T45 24 x CAMM covering over those MK41 slots! They could go with 2 x ExLS and have 48 CAMM! Or, one each, one MK41, one ExLS! Just waiting for the T32 and T83 to be pushed back now.
Some good news albeit 2030-35! “The United Kingdom is planning to fly the Leonardo European Common Radar System Mark 2 (ECRS Mk2) radar aboard a Eurofighter test aircraft in late 2023, with initial operating capability (IOC) slated for 2030, a Ministry of Defence (MoD) spokesperson said on 24 May.” https://www.janes.com/defence-news/c4isr-command-tech/latest/uk-to-fly-eurofighter-ecrs-mk-2-e-scan-radar-in-2023-ioc-slated-for-2030 “BAE Systems expects to fly in 2024 a demonstrator of the large-area display (LAD) cockpit it is developing for the Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft. Speaking to Janes and other defence media at the company’s Warton facility on 24 May, Anthony Gregory, market development director for Europe, said that in early 2024 the… Read more »
I’m not sure why if the Mk2 radar will be tested next year, IOC will only be in 2030? What will need to be done to create a production model? Aiming for Tempest in 2035 on the other hand is really good news. Nothing’s slipped yet.
The Typhoon fleet started the P3Ec upgrade package last year, deliveries should finish in 2024. The upgrade includes preparation work for radar 2, i.e. cooling, energy generation, sensor fusion to the new cockpit.
I’d imagine that testing and development for the new radar would run till 2026 at the earliest. Then manufacturing and installation would take till 2030.
Delaying something never saves money; even just due to inflation it’s inevitable that the price of that item will increase. If it’s one in a class of ships, however, the problem is even worse since stretching out the build time means you have to pay all the workers for 12 years instead of 6 years (and yes, I know that maintaining jobs is one of the reasons of this unfortunate and inefficient policy). On the topic of all those weapons, yes they will certainly be required prior to 2030 and both MI6 and the MOD know that. However, we’re back… Read more »
I wish they would stop putting back purchasing. That just means money meant for something else next year gets sidelined. So freaking stupid.
It would be interesting to see how the Chinese Type 96 tank (which has a 125mm round carousel loader) compares with Soviet T72/80/90 in Russian service. Would they perform as poorly? Might Russia be forced to buy some as its losses in Ukraine mount?
In assume they still have thousands of T72’s in long term store to rebuild to T90 spec? I would guess the main issue facing Russian forces is to take and hold eastern Ukraine before their supply of spares runs out across the board. The Russian Airforce in particular must be sweating, most of its precision guided munitions spent and having to lob dumb bombs, with the subsequent massive drop in effective weapons employment. Also considering the short overhaul life of Russian Aircraft, compounded by operational use, they must be facing a perfect storm of decreased availability and effectiveness. Pressure is… Read more »
I agree with most of what you say but pictures of ancient T62s being taken out of storage ( https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/2022/05/is-there-any-value-in-war-reserves.html ) might indicate that Russia is nearing the end of its ability to generate T72s for combat.
I am really envious of your access to classified Russian information without which you would not have been able to make those claims. I trust you are sharing it with our Int Corps.
Oh dear you really don’t like any negative comments about your Russkie mates do you! You get so hand bag about it!
I don’t mind negative comments like those you make when they are attacking my assumptions and conclusions, less so when i am stating facts. Where they are justified, that’s life, I get things wrong. But this is a site that George puts a lot of effort into getting factual information out on, with many readers, who may not know much about the subject matter, perhaps reading the comments to fill out the detail. Most of the time this works really well as there are many real experts here happy to share their knowledge. The problem arises when someone of standing… Read more »
I don’t speak to people who condone looting Rape and Murder, please don’t respond to my posts…..
George ban this Kremlin hacker will you……
I assume that you are aware of the Russian SVP-24 Gefest bomb aiming computer system used on the Su-24 and 25 since it was introduced in 2015 and extensively tested in Syria. It is the latter that, for obvious reasons, is being used as the main CAS bomb/rocket truck in eastern Ukraine. From public sources, the Su-25SM3 upgrade included an improved GLONASS input giving the ability to program the end point with an accuracy of 10 m in the SVP-24-25 sighting and navigation system (SVP-24 Gefest variant), which makes it possible to increase the accuracy of unguided aircraft weapons to… Read more »
So why are they using mobile phones for GPS, as aircraft shot down have shown!
I don’t know, especially as GPS is heavily jammed so they wouldn’t be much use.
We know, Russkies have shit kit, while being very good at pretending they have good kit, no matter what their tame puppets on the internet claim! But now as we are talking, how about NO LONGER ignoring the question, do you condemn Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine and do you support the invasion, of so have the balls to say so and we will all read, intently, your reasoning! Alas however I doubt you will answer, you may respond but with some lame paraphrase but no answer eh Johnskie boy!
JIMK, You have stated many a time you have no military knowledge (other than a stint with the cadets 60 years ago) and yet you feel you have the knowledge to lecture to those that do, that you have a far superior understanding of weapons technology, and tactics than those who do. Don’t get me wrong, people who have served do not automatically know better than those who haven’t, far from it. But time and time again you post something where you profess the superiority of Russian weapons, only to be knocked down. So regards the Su 34, it is… Read more »
Please re-read my post. I did not mention the Su-34 neither did I profess the superiority of SVP-24, nor mention the Su-24/rockets combination, just that it was a way of using dumb/unguided bombs/rockets more accurately. I think that the A-10 may have similar. I welcome your comments on my posts as many times you are able to correct me or increase the debth of knowledge. Clearly those who have served have knowledge that is unique to what they did and probably areas around it. As you say I didn’t and never claimed to have. But I have a pretty good… Read more »
Wait a minute I thought you said you served with the British army and the bundeswehr in past posts. You were explaining how the Gepard training was 12 months minimum when you were there and there is hardly anyone left in the forces who could train on it.
As for the bomb Aimer I have a thought that if it’s as accurate as a gps bomb why aren’t all forces using it? It’s certainly not that they can’t make one as good or better
He forgets we can all go and read his previous chuff!
I assume your first comment was tongue in cheek as I never said that, I quoted a German.
All I said on accuracy was 10 meters, which is a lot less than a GPS guided bomb but I assume much better than a non computed release point dumb bomb.
Have a go and poke fun at me but at least get what you say correct please.
JIMK, I feel I wasn’t clear enough regards the gist of my post, and for that I apologise. The point I was trying to highlight was this board is stacked up to the rafters with SMEs in the fields of Land, Air and Sea warfare. It really is eye opening (for me at least) the information they bring to the table and without been disparaging to you, you have a tendency to promulgate pro Russian sound bytes without realising that you are simply regurgitating misinformation. For example the post I responded to where you tried to pass off the SVP-24 Gefest as… Read more »
Yes, I agree totally that there are members here who have and are willing to share an impressive amount of expertise, it is one of the reasons I am here. Yes, I tend to write about Russian stuff, mainly due to my interest in Ukraine since 2013, so have some information to give, some of which may be wrong given their lack of openness but I try to get it as accurate as I can. Conversely, please play fair with your criticisms Farouk. It is almost as if you have not read my previous comments made an hour after… Read more »
“I welcome your comments on my posts as many times you are able to correct me or increase the debth of knowledge.”
Don’t tell him your name Pike🤣🤣🤣
I’ll bet he doesn’t like soggy chips either….
The Russian Morse tapper won’t get that reference Airborne….👌
I did but chippies are a dying breed around here in Newport Pagnell. Just like the banks, turning into Indian takeaways and restaurants.
I certainly don’t. Both Lidl and Aldi make very good skin on oven chips. If you haven’t tried them you should give them a go.
Two replying to the same post, must have been a change of shift, top tip, leave notes when swapping over to the next Morse tapper…
Don’t get a Dads Army reference … Oh dear, back to spy school with you, poor effort!
I thought Lidl and Aldi had both pulled out of Russia beacuse of all that looting, raping and murdering we keep hearing about in our decadent western media?
“Extensively tested in Syria” on civvies and civilian areas! You know sweet FA about reality but love your Russkie propaganda posts!
That’s an interesting picture (Granted its from a computer game) of the Type 99, which clearly shows how much the Chinese derived from the T72 including the auto loader. Yet I cannot but help feel that despite the addition of extra armour to the front and sides, the family tree of China’s MBT (96/99/99A,VT4) appear to be just as vulnerable to top attack weapons as the T64/72/80/90 due to that auto loader. It will be interesting to see how quickly the Chinese take note in which to address that vulnerability and will their GL-5 Active protection system be part of the… Read more »
The Chinese are certainly a lot better than the utter laughing stock the Russians have been proven to be, but they still rely on similar tactics, i.e,brute force and ignorance with a lot of second tier equipment.. At least the Chinese have a core silver bullet force of well trained ( and increasingly well equipped professional forces), the Russians have nothing more nukes and and a load of old crap, poorly trained and motivated personell. Had the Ukrainians got round to upgrading their Flanker force with Israeli systems and missiles a few years ago, they would have absolutely wiped the… Read more »
What a joke! The Chicoms literally steal every single piece of Western tech they can get their hands on and someone posts a pic of a tank shell rod and it’s immediately taken down citing it’s classified in China? By chance is the forum moderator Hunter Biden? LMAO!
No different to the West. Didn’t the similar classified Challenger and Leopard manual data that appeared ‘to increase the game’s accuracy’ get taken down as well?
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