Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

- You said you quit a job at EA, quit a job at IBM, dropped out of college your freshman year. You may have valid reasons for leaving each of these, but you have to see this from the manager's perspective: You had 3 different great opportunities that all came to a dead end at the beginning of your career. You need an alternate narrative.

- You talk about applying to Google, Facebook, Airbnb, Palantir, and other companies known to be very competitive, yet the only real job experience you list in your post is low level customer support. Nothing wrong with aiming high, but you need to also be applying to jobs that are a logical next step in your career. It's extraordinarily difficult to jump from customer support to FAANG engineer, so have a backup plan.

- You spoofed e-mails to manipulate executives into meetings. This kind of thing sounds clever in movies or from anecdotes in the 90s or 2000s, but in this era everyone is on high alert for phishing attacks and security breaches. Read the room, and don't commit computer fraud during your application process. Big companies have systems in place to catch these things and you'll get blocked in short order.

- No mention of your network. Do you have any contacts or friends or acquaintances anywhere in the industry? Even people you knew briefly from school? People who you worked with in the past who moved up? Reach out and ask if they have any advice for your job search. Going forward, make a point to stay on good terms with the people around you. You can help each other as your careers progress.

The master said "You're too young, you need to start with more modest projects."

"But master" said the boy "you first composed a symphony when you were half my age!"

"Yes, but I didn't ask anyone how."

What I mean by this is that "hustling" is something of a unique, rare, or hacking like thing. You can't ask people how to do it, because if they could tell you then everyone would do it and it wouldn't work. I don't mean that like people are keeping a secret, but more like hustling means going through a dynamic and unexpected route and it's not something people can easily reduce to instructions.

Well are they hustling or looking for steady employment in tech?

I wish there was, like, short and simple advice that I could give you to not be a creep. I just tried to google that, and I'm not finding a good clear resource. Like most social skills, there's a viciously sharp learning curve because people don't like giving feedback to creeps because that's usually an opening for even creepier behavior. Sorry.

And, maybe set your sights lower. Your intelligence will shine if you get a job at a very small company that doesn't know what it needs.

However, saying someone is a creep is not very helpful. There is a big difference between how one is perceived and what a person -is-.

The most helpful advice I've seen here is: get direct feedback from a candid friend.

This HN feedback offers a range of opinions, but -please- don't dwell on it. Find a way to have people you know help you ... practice interviews, talking out loud about your situation, your expectations, your goals, and so on.

I would describe op's behavior as "desperate" more than creepy. Desperation is really easy to spot and unappealing, my guess is that is shows through in interviews.

When does desperate become creepy? Everyone has a different definition.

If I was an exec on the receiving end, I'd definitely be put off by all of this.

it is immensely frustrating to deal with automated systems, resume keyword matchers, no contact within a company and being ghosted after taking the time to write a proposal and cover letter that is a fit for the job description.

so what, he called an executive and got around their spam filter?

my advice

treat job hunting like a sales process.

you're successful based on the number of interviews you get.

figure out during the interview what's their decision making process.

read more books on sales and learn to handle rejection.

stop pursuing status jobs, at least until you have one with a good income.

I've not had terribly good luck with people who use the term 'go getter.' Quite a few of them have been creeps. Smooth and slick, definitely, but at the end of the day, manipulative people who I avoid making eye contact with at public events, hoping that they don't remember me. Creeps.

In your view, what are some ways you think about the difference between persuasion and manipulation?

I've been reading about this very topic in the context of media persuasion.

William Hazlitt, The Shyness of Scholars (1827)

Salespeople, marketers, and recruiters generally don't give two shits about the product they're selling.

So yes it's manipulative because they're displaying fake enthusiasm and trying to trick you into thinking it's genuine.

Actual persuasion is when you get them to want to do it. But a lot of forms of manipulation are disguised as persuasion - guilt, gaslighting, partial truth. A lot of "hustling" is manipulation too, they want to convince the higher up that they are willing to do anything for the job, despite not being the most qualified for it.

Put another way, persuasion is helping someone explore the topic and come to their own conclusion, manipulation is going in knowing the answer and guiding towards it. If you are trying to help someone realize a truth you knew ahead of time, you're manipulating them.

Of course under that assumption, basically every human communication is manipulative, but that doesn't mean it is intrinsically "evil". It's all rather subjective I guess.

"Evil", or maybe to be a bit more specific, "sleazy", would be to use such manipulation with the intent of personal or tribal benefit, which is what fits the people groups you mentioned above.

I tend to avoid dealing with such recruiters that use heavy handed forceful tactics, but there are a lot of them.

Many/most of those people, it seems to me, mean well but have difficulty connecting with you in the way you are used to. Many of those people have a bunch of insecurities, burdens, or even mental health concerns. I don't think it is useful to call those people creeps.

Some people are certainly toxic in the context of certain relationships or cultures, I get that.

If someone is using you without reciprocating, there are words for that, but I don't tend to use 'creep'.

Anyhow, I hope we can offer constructive (actionable) feedback to the OP.

Isn't that the normal definition?

I guess i agree that creep is a deregatory word and not really helpful in this context. At the same time, intentionally obfuscating who you are in order to trick someone into interacting with you against their will is not ok behaviour, and well within what most people consider "creepy". Possibly even crosses the line into harrasment.

> Many/most of those people, it seems to me, mean well but have difficulty connecting with you in the way you are used to. Many of those people have a bunch of insecurities, burdens, or even mental health concerns.

That's hard, but ultimately doesn't excuse actions that negatively impact other people.

Perhaps the difference is how succesful you are at it.

> so what, he called an executive and got around their spam filter?

Pissing off people you need something from is probably a poor tactic. Especially when you're not offering something particularly rare. Doubly so because the executive is not the hiring manager, so its unlikely they could help you, only hurt you.

I agree with most of the rest of your advice fwiw.

This is really the crux of it, for me. People hear stories about executives finding that diamond in the rough and slashing through the beauracracy to get them hired. That kind of thing almost never happens, especially from the perspective of the person looking for a job. I think this perspective might be hard to get until you've worked at a large organization, or better hired people at one.

Brutal honesty? You're probably just not that special, don't expect special treatment.

Right, and any salesperson will tell you that acting like a creep isn't going to get you sales.

I wouldn't go as far to say OP is a creep, but some of the behavior mentioned does make me cringe a bit.

But it's good to hear that you're seeing a therapist. I didn't figure that one out until my mid 30s

Edit: I'm not one to crab about downvotes, but if y'all downvoting the parent post could kindly quit that. This person has shared some deep vulnerability here, they're asking for help and doing the work. This shit's a process

I upvoted parent/OP's post because I agree with you there.

> Yeah, I'd guess that you're on the spectrum.

Unless you are a psychiatrist who has met with OP in person (well, Zoom, these days, I guess), please don't armchair diagnose someone as being autistic. You have no basis or qualifications for this, and reading a couple posts on HN does not count.

You MUST learn how to make friends, how to not upset people, how to be comfortable in social situations and empathy.

To do this I would recommend that you force yourself into social situations regularly. Afterwards spend some time thinking about how the interaction went, especially from the other persons viewpoint, practice empathizing (it is a skill that can be learned and will make you a better more considerate person).

So join several clubs that meets and does something in person. You should have two scheduled social events every week.

Try your best to be aware of peoples feelings and groups social structure so that you can try to not trample all over either.

Going straight to upper management as you described is generally not well accepted and most definitely upsets middle management (the people who would actually hire you).

Basically, realize that the problem is who you are and that you need to become someone else to succeed. Changing your own personality is one of the hardest things one can do, so expect it to take a few years.

I've had better luck with do something with a more structured environment. E.g. take an in person class (something not work related. Learn sign language or something) but that takes $$$ and ymmv.

I asked people that for a while. Except when one guy responded "It's time to get a watch" lol, I became blushed and kinda embrassed. I saw a comment recommending How to Win Friend and Influence People which I definitely want to read.

Being, and therefore appearing, genuinely interested in what the other person is saying about themselves creates the best feelings in the world for the other person, and you won't run out of things to talk about.

"You just got a new dog? Cool!"

Then you can ask any follow up question you like.

What kind? What's their name? Where'd you get them from? Do you feed them "people food"?.. etc.

One question at a time of course, and avoid queuing them up in your head. When the other person is talking, try very hard not to think of the next thing you're going to say. If you do that, you'll miss what they're actually saying and eventually say something that makes it clear you weren't listening. Similarly, you'll miss out on each new bit of the conversation, and those new bits are the basis of new, honest, follow up questions.

You don't have to be interested in dogs generally, to be interested in them temporarily. "Being interested, intentionally" is a skill you can improve.

Don't try to direct the flow of the conversation too much either. Go into your next conversation with friends, family, coworkers, or strangers with a truly open mind about what you're going to talk about, with no agenda, and be happy knowing it could change at any time.

Your job is to listen and ask more.

A lot of supposed "conversations" are just two people looking at each other, waiting for their turn to talk. If you're going to do that you might as well each write your sentences down beforehand, exchange them, and then throw them away without reading them.

The truth is, nobody wants to hear what you have to say. They don't want to hear what I have to say. They want to tell you about what's going on in their lives and what's important to them.

Obviously it’s not your technical qualifications but something in the way you approach people in interviews. The fact that you say you had to read how to talk to people at a party and couldn’t figure out how to diverge from doing exactly what you read over and over is what tipped me off to think you may be weirding people out.

Honestly, if you were to say “hey I know I have some weirdness but I have the best intentions”... I personally would appreciate that. The first step is acknowledging that and trying to convince the people you’ll work with that it won’t get in the way.

Also in the future, don’t quit a job if you don’t have a backup just because you wanted to get paid more.

Bouldering? Ask for beta or work a problem with someone. Top rope or sport? The gym should have a program for people looking for belay partners.

Give it another shot

Parties are not really good places to learn social skills, people are generally partially drunk and behave differently than they would anywhere else.

Look at this list of hobbies [1], pick two that you think looks interesting and has a club in your local area. Then join those clubs and show up at every opportunity. If you are asked to join a special event or help out with something or join a forum/chat room then smile and say "yes, I would love to".

Try to stick with the same club for at least a year.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hobbies

Your terminology here says a lot, right?

If you are going to a meetup to meet people, then the whole point is to get to know people. And yes, that will involve them knowing your name, and communicating with you.

To open up your job prospects: realize this is normal and desirable.

Might be tough in the age of covid, but there's lots of socializing and networking opportunities outside traditional interviewing. Meetups could be good, because you'd practice in the context of technical discussions and presenting your skillset, which is sorta like interviewing.

My second piece of advice would be to read How to Win Friends and Influence People. It formally codifies a lot of the unspoken rules that charismatic people take for granted.

If you want some FANG interviewing advice or just a general career/life sounding board, feel free to email me at the email on my profile.

this goes for anyone else struggling.

In my experience, this has definitely not been true. People will assume you're being standoffish even though you're just minding your own business, just aren't a very talkative person, are focused on solving a problem, etc.

If you're trying to "play the game," you'll probably be better off (in some sense) spending less time on work and more time being affable.

Honestly, just a guess, you're probably giving off bad interpersonal vibes/people don't really like talking to you. Half of interviewing is just being very personable/being able to talk comfortably with other people. Generally in this space (this space meaning those interested in tech/startups/etc) sometimes people struggle in this area but really shine in tech. I would encourage you to spend some time reflecting on your interpersonal skills.

Some other red-ish flags from your post - you kinda seem like you might struggle just doing exactly what you're asked to do. Bringing up how frequently you quit things for various reasons or finding issues and bringing them up with your superiors' superiors, spoofing numbers to get in touch with very very senior people. Lots of lower-tiered jobs literally just need people to show up and do what they're asked. A part of getting a "first" or "entry level" job is accepting you're there mostly to learn, not to teach/move outside of your lane. The fact that you would even bring up Bill Landreth seems like you might not necessarily see yourself how the rest of the world sees you.

I'm not trying to offend you - I really hope you can line something up soon. I apologize if this feedback seems cold - I think reflecting on things like this can be hard because you have to face things about yourself you may disagree with or not realize. Unfortunately interviewing is such a biased game, you kind of have to play your opponent (meaning, be the person they want, not the person you are).

Happy to chat through any of this stuff if you have questions. Wish you all the best.

Yes, this is what stood out for me. OP sounds malcontented, and habitually dissatisfied with his role, and makes antisocial decisions (like spoofing numbers - which is not just dishonest but shows contempt for the target) that show poor judgement. He compounds the poor judgement by bragging about the previous poor judgement.

The antisocial stuff is implicit in what he doesn't mention: from his descriptions, his workplaces are hollow boxes with some juicy targets (execs) in them and nothing else. Where are the people? There aren't any because at some level they don't exist for the OP. This is, of course, a hallmark trait of narcissism.

The good news (great news, really), is that NPD is one of the most treatable of personality disorders if the person decides they want treatment. The reason? The narcissist is confident in their ability, and confidence helps when you want to shape your own behavior.

The caveat to all this being that free advice is worth what you paid for it, even less if given by a stranger on the internet. But, FWIW, it's my honest take. If it ends up being accurate (if you look up the disorder) and you get help, I'd love to know if this post help you. (See, I'm a little NPD too! ;)

Reason that I mentioned that I mentioned Bill Landreth was that I think that I'm kinda like him. I got in to programming, RE, VR, soldering etc. when I was very young. Like 8 years old. I knew some folks that Wired articles were written about etc. I hanged out with a Head of Research guy at IBM who told me himself that I know some stuff that he doesn't know, and have told me that I'm smart. Which sounds cringy now that I type this. But I'm not delusional lol. I was the second person at 18 years old to be hired full-time at IBM in a certain program.. The first guy works at Armonk. I can send proof, screenshots of interview emails with DKIM etc. if anyone would like to verify my claims. Trust but verify as former president Reagan liked to quote.

In another post you brought up your longest stint being 2 months, and that you dropped out of college your freshman year. To be blunt, I don't think the achievements you list really count if you didn't actually complete them. There's a lot of "I worked with", "I got accepted to", "I got hired by" in your posts, but pretty much all of those things are followed by quitting almost immediately. When you're competing in a market with college grads and people with lots of previous experience, having gotten accepted to and then dropping out of a good school buys you much?

With an abusive childhood, homeschooling, no college, OP has a long road to travel. That all needs to be addressed, and finding a supportive environment will make that much easier. A career is based on achievement, however, beginning with simply doing the work and staying employed.

Many jobs do not require much intelligence. Even those that do, usually its just one component of the skills required.

Focus on smaller companies that need help solving actual business problems with automation. Offer to do a project for $20 an hour. Get a job doing straight up IT stuff until you earn their trust, and then show them what you can do software wise. There is a lot of room for competent IT people, but you need to be way more realistic about who is going to hire you.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone wants to work for Google anyways. I took a developer course from one of their former employees, and it was a fucking joke. His ego trip was so ridiculous he said the words "no good Javascript developer uses four space indentions. Have you ever seen one??" And I was thinking, yes, in the library you had us review last week.

Lots of imposters and jackasses out there. Do honest work for smaller companies. It can lead to a lot more opportunity.

You’ve started a great dialog with yourself. Congrats, and keep it going.

And in my experience, if you fail the technical portion of an interview, most companies will tell you. Meaning, if you ask and they don't bring up technical skills, it's probably not the technical skills.

(I'd hope it would be close to 0, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was much higher.)

When I was young I interviewed at Microsoft and was rejected. I asked the recruiter for feedback. She talked me through some of the feedback from the interviewers and gave me advice for the future. It was really helpful.

Your applying to those companies with 0 experience or college degree is unrealistic. The entry level is extremely competitive and you have nothing to make you interesting to hire. They get thousands of applications for those jobs.

You are still young, plenty of time to learn, but I recommend taking a step back and rethink your strategy. There are plenty of companies that do not get thousands of applications for jobs.

Let me put it bluntly: you are not qualified to be a software engineer. There is no reason anyone would currently hire you, unless you are personable and fun to talk to.

You show immaturity in the way you handled the flaw in the system you described. Calling your boss's boss because you think you are right is childish.

Additionally, you do not understand how to get a software job, you do not have realistic expectations for what kind of jobs you are qualified to acquire.

A few years ago my brother, who is in his thirties, was stuck in a dead end job he hated. So he took some classes in 3D modeling. He worked hard, built out his portfolio, networked, and eventually landed a job at a world famous video game studio making AAA games at an interesting role that builds his skills.

What he did not do was blindly apply to jobs he was not qualified to do with zero training

I don't know. I think he has pretty decent writing. Kinda reminds me of William Gibson. It may be stylistically unusual, but it's definitely better than the median SWE. At least in terms of clearly conveying his thoughts.

This coupled with being a dropout. quitting job after job, and basically phising executives for attention makes this candidate a high risk hire and is not worth the time.

Poster: You will need to extend your hard skills and demonstrate why a group should take the risk of your background on. It may be brutally honest, but the world is tough.

It's hard to judge their writing without seeing their resume and/or cover letter

It's too curt and while that's alright for a casual i.e., HN audience, if that's how one communicates in other contexts there will be miscommunication.

Going back to college seems like a good idea as a general direction.

Correctly so

> Your applying to those companies with 0 experience or college degree is unrealistic.

The clause "applying to..." is possessed by "your".

Edit: also looking back, GP used your correctly, so wut?

I went above my bosses head because they did not remedy the issue, and weren't going to.. The SVP guy that I did contact told me that would be willing to vouch for me that I did find a security vuln etc. He was actually quite receptive. I shouldn't of even had to, or felt like I had to go above my bosses head. There should've been a security email I could've emailed. That was at EA. At Amazon I emailed the VP in charge of the anti-fraud system since it might've taken longer for the blue team to send it to the right folks. But yeah, I do agree with you slighty on that.

My take is you seem to have an inflated sense of your abilities. I've interviewed people who share this trait and it's a turn off unless they have a portfolio of work to back it up.

Perhaps try taking a more humble approach. Ask lots of questions as to what/where they need help. If they align with your experience then share concrete examples of how you've helped others in those same situations. If you haven't, make note of the challenges and see if you can identify patterns across interviews. This would provide hints as to what skill-building you could focus on in the interim.

Good luck!

Re: going over your bosses head: Where is your sense of self preservation? Also, why do you think nobody else will do their job?

Is the fraud system YOUR problem? Then do your due diligence, mark it as someone elses problem, and let it ride.

You gotta suck up to your boss a bit. Going over their head is provoking them!

I see the problem. Most entry level programming jobs today either require a college degree, or they're for very low level web programming. Now, if you're competent at making basic web sites and the front end or back end of a business application, that's a saleable skill. Although one that several million other people already have. Also realize that about half the job is figuring out what the customer (your boss, probably) really wants.

If you hung around a research environment, and you know a little programming, did some soldering, and know which end of a capacitor is positive, but didn't go to college, that's not really a saleable skill set any more. In 1980 it sometimes was.

Useful reading: https://daedtech.com/programming-job-without-degree/

And that seems to be the case with going over your bosses head ("I went above my bosses head because they did not remedy the issue, and weren't going to.")

Being right is great! But having a job is also great. Perhaps focus less on proving yourself right, and more on getting along with people?

Edit: reading further in the thread it sounds like you went over your bosses head 2 weeks into a job? That's really not a great idea.

I minored in English, and OP writes better than most of the English majors I was in writing workshops with.

edit: To elaborate, this was at a local university in a U.S. city where 70% of the population were native English speakers. None of the people in my writing workshops were ESL.

Followed by

>Your applying to those companies

instead of "you are" or "you're"

Cut him some slack.

If you get a job in customer support at Amazon there is literally no way to get a 'promotion' to a dev role. It's different parts of the org, and you're tarnished with being a CS person. Why? Because it's signaling - people who can do eng roles at Amazon don't take CS roles so they don't bother mining to check on the rare chance someone in CS can.

In your replies you say "I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months. I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation."

If your resume reflects that you've bounced around after a few months as a hiring manager I'm not even going to bother offering you an interview.

You also said your were home schooled and many people here have commented you might have social skill issues. I am not a doctor but I wonder if you have delusions of grandeur around your abilities which is creating a miss-match of expectation leading you to quit jobs you need to tough it out in. Or you have dyslexia or another learning difficulty (I have dyslexia, I quit school, never went to university, did many shit jobs to work my way up, it took years and years)

I would suggest you find someone who is an actual hiring manager to give you a mock interview and analyze their feedback. If you can't find someone closer in your circle, I'll give you mock 30 minute interview (I've hired countless engineers, designers, PMs and other roles in the last 20+ years)

If you want a career in tech you do need to get out of the wrong swim-lane, which a CS role at Amazon is the wrong lane as it will never convert to where you want it to go.

In the end, a healthy, non-insular, loving, connected family (either family of origin or a healthy/happy group into which one is welcomed and spends lots of time) is the only necessary requirement for healthy social skills, and it's often sufficient as well.

I sent you an email to take you up on your mock interview offer.

But if you have programming skills, I agree you're far off going directly for dev roles instead.

So the accepted practice is to connect directly with the HM for a chat/pre-interview and once they say they are inclined (barring unexpected info), click apply. This is fairly common and expected.

From the other side of equation as a hiring manager, it's a small negative signal if somebody internal applies "cold", the good candidates tend to reach out first.

Dont do this at apple though*

*this is hearsay. Maybe up/downvotes can help resolve this?

Do this 5ish times. See where the gaps are. Work to fill them.

oh and get on blind so you can learn from other people's mistakes :)

That's creepy and a poor start for giving someone social skills advice.

Helps me put my worries in perspective. It works really well!

Seriously consider going back to school and finishing a degree. Although it's "known" that you don't really need a degree for a SW role, there are plenty of well established old school companies that will not consider you at all unless you have a degree. On the flip side, you'll get jobs more easily. A lot of interviewers who choose to interview someone without a degree are doing it "just in case he turns out to be a genius." You are not one (or at least have not shown you are one). Let me be brutally honest: In such companies, you will not get a job if you interview as well as the average candidate who has a degree. Managers don't want to have to justify hiring someone without a degree, and they look worse amongst their peers if a bad hire didn't have a degree than if they did.

> Reading Meyers, Knuth etc. books.

Improving technical skills is always good. However, your role in a company, and your performance, are due to lots of other factors. A person who is average in all areas is generally more desirable than a smart person in one area who is poor in others.

You might see if you can re-enroll in your school.

At this point in your life the best thing you can do is go to school, try to get some help from your parents or financial aid to focus on your studies, and absolutely do not try to carve your own way through the curriculum. Do the things they put in front of you. Show that you can take on tasks that are boring but necessary and get them done. Embrace the grind. And make some friends! Learning how to interact normally with your peers is a necessary skill that homeschooling rarely helps with.

Personally, I'm a college dropout. I was a mediocre student in high school and a worse one in college because I took time off in between, and was overly impressed with my own ability and didn't put in the work. It took me years to dig out of that hole professionally, but it's possible. And I would never have done it without the social skills and connections I made going to a major university, even if I didn't finish.

So some perspective for you to consider. The first is that as I have advanced in my career (its been solid if not extraordinary) the core curriculum stuff I thought was going to never apply working as a technologist has ended up being suprisingly useful. I wasn't a fan of linear algebra in undergrad, but now I'm using it on a data science related stuff. My politics concentration has ended up very useful at understanding the group and organizational dynamics. Even my forced sociology course lets me understand the reasoning of some my peers/superiors who buy into that line of research far more than if I was coming in blind. Theory of computation... remains useless, but they can't all be winners.

The second, and more important, perspective is that as a person who does some indirect hiring (interviewer plus technical lead, but not people manager), I worry that someone without a degree has trouble driving to completion in the face of disinterest, or is self sabotaging. My projects are mostly enjoyable, but sometimes I (or someone on my team) needs to spend 3-4 weeks writing up a government mandated security document. It sucks, but it has to be done. If I think you might be the type of person that will have trouble completing that independently because there is always more fun stuff to be working on, I don't want you on my team.

A degree is a noisy, loosely correalated signal that you won't be that person. However, as others have mentioned, your writing here indicates you MAY be that person, and not having a degree is a correalative signal that doesn't help your case.

It often is a better way to learn, but that's not why I suggested going back to school. It doesn't sound like your technical skills are the reason you're not getting a job.

> So, it might be just one of those things that I'll have to suck up and just do.

Most jobs are full of things you have to suck up and do. As long as you work for someone else, sucking up and doing will be a big part of your career.

Oh, and if you start your own business and work for yourself, chances are you'll spend even more time doing tedious stuff - although it depends on your business.

Doing what you want is the domain of the financially independent, and (some) tenured faculty members.

You’re young and you can change your trajectory—have hope!—but it will not be through some home run fantasy. Don’t apply to FAANG or Deep Springs or MIT. Apply to your local community college and to local companies’ IT departments. Keep the job, stay enrolled, get good grades, learn to stay quiet, learn to listen, and only then learn to argue well. After two-three years at community college (depending how fast you go, based on need to work), take your good grades and apply to a few colleges. Go to one that you can afford and isn’t intimidating. Do the work there, too, and graduate. Five years. And then all will be well.

A better way to learn, yes perhaps.

A degree shows that you can consistently show up and complete tasks. That's the important part. I haven't read all your posts but it is unclear to me that you actually completed a degree and got the slip of paper?

Unless you have notable (4-5yrs) experience for the position I am looking for, I probably wouldn't hire someone without a degree. It's just a baseline thing you need.

Based on your comments you seem talented but unreliable.

Also, depending on the college scene, you might have more opportunities to socialize with lots of people which you may have missed with your home schooling.

Depending on where you live, community college varies from amazingly affordable to right around the same as a state university. Check on student aid as well.

Sometimes you have to jump through the hoops to show you can.

University is very academic, work is very practical.

In the world of software, that probably means having a portfolio of projects you can point to as examples (including but not neccesarily limited to open source projects. Other options include starting your own company (very hard), etc)

I don't think this person will be able to do consulting considering the actions they have done while interacting with managers, directors, executives.

It is the highest ROI investment I have ever made in myself.

College - 212K tuition (current) - 4 yrs - no job guarantee

Bootcamp - 18K tuition - 3 months - money back if no job within a year

Can you spot the scam?

It's as if I compared your average college with a crappy bootcamp. Let's not cherry-pick.

The number I want to see is the percentage of college grads with a BS in CS who get a (decent) job within a year, vs the percentage of people who complete a bootcamp who get a (decent) job within a year. I suspect the numbers will favor college, but I honestly have no idea.

Getting your money back sounds like a good deal, but you'd still have spent a whole year without a job, and nothing to show for it.

Personally i think neither are a scam (although 212k is ridiculous, glad i dont live in usa) just make sure you understand what they are selling and that it matches what you want.

Look on LinkedIn for people who work at the companies you want to work at, and also went to bootcamps, to build a shortlist.

There are several boot camps today, in every major urban area, that carry major street cred in the local tech communities.

I’m sure there are other good ones, but I only personally know graduates of these programs.

After I got a degree I started getting responses from places.

I've never had one that did this (or told me about it, at least). My understanding was that the company is basically paying them to find talent, so you're the product being sold. Sometimes there's even a clause that if you quit too soon they have to give back their commission, which further incentivizes them to make sure you really are a good fit.

You don't pay someone less because they came via a recruiter because then they are going to be poached for being underpaid. You also don't pay someone more because they didn't come in via a recruiter otherwise now I have guys working on varying salaries which creates issues if that comes out in a team.

source: prior founder, hiring manager at large companies, etc

EDIT: based on the first reply I got I want to revise this slightly. Don't go into too much detail about who rejected you or how many times. In fact keep the details short but make it clear you think interviewing is a weakness they should coach you with

(Note that this only applies to recruiting agencies. A "recruiter" at the company you're interviewing for is the exact opposite story.)

Now that I think about it I'm not sure how to actually seek one out otherwise... you might attract them by putting buzzwords on your LinkedIn? It probably isn't too hard to Google for them either

Unless you are willing to relocate to a saner country than the US, you need to give up one. Most commenters here advise to give up some of your freedom and stick it out somewhere, and it's a very valid advice. I just want to add that you can also consider going the opposite way - and just get a steady stream of shorter-term gigs freelancing (e.g. Upwork).

There is a lot of upsides - it's easy to work on projects completely remotely (including written only with no voice/video) which rules out any interpersonal issues; you can work on bite-sized projects which might be your cup of tea, at the same time some of the projects will turn into long term opportunities; you can actually put the best projects on your CV.

Freelancing won't give you great medical insurance. And at the beginning (with no history on the platform) it's a grind to succeed in the competition and you need to work your hourly rates up from a low base. Longer term it can pay nicely, you'll be working on a lot of different things and learn what you enjoy, and it should teach you a lot.

Derisk this experiment, try it out while you are looking for a job.

It's important there, as anywhere, to approach interactions with humility.

Life happens and reasons happen but you didn't complete college, you complain about your entry level position at amazon but I see nothing that warrants a greater position than that. Obviously this may not be everything about you so it's difficult to judge.

I have no degree, but worked hard, stuck to jobs for 2-3 years before moving and developed a track record that hiring managers like to see. That means working for $15/hr in a position that you feel is beneath you. The thing that position provides you valuable experience and showing you can stick with things. Companies that hire you put forth a significant investment that takes roughly a year to pay off. Employees don't always realize that. If you look like you won't stick around they won't hire you.

One of the most important thing, especially as a junior is to be likable and present your suggestions in a likable way. Also it's key to know when no one wants to hear your suggestions. Sometimes your perspective may be a new thing that was never thought of or it could be one sided, the business knows it and had accepted the risk but it's not within your knowledge scope to know that.

I do technical interviews for the company I work for. If you're not likable to me, you're probably not getting hired. If I get the impression that every interaction will be a dick measuring contest because you come off as a smarty pants, I'm not recommend hiring. Someone who's knowledgeable and humble is going to get my recommendation. If you're good, and know how to communicate well you'll naturally rise to lead a team because they'll look to you for answers or ideas and everyone will notice.

It really sounds like you need to "pay your dues" by showing that you can stick to something. That's either complete college and get a degree or work entry level for 2 years and move up or out to the next position.

Like I mentioned in other comments. I think HM's see me as a quitter. Also other baises like ageism etc. I think are apart of the issue. I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks. I think that I come off as demure. I take a long time to answer sometimes. Due to my sutter, and southern drawl etc. But I try to listen, and pay attention to detail. Learn when to shut up, and when input/insight is wanted etc.

Sometimes when I do receive rejection feedback it's mostly "overqualifed", "not a good fit", and "not enough experience". I received a rejection from state farm today stating that I'm not a good fit. Even though I meet the qualifcations.

Take this with a grain of salt, since obviously I don't actually know you or the details of this situation. However, flagging issues to your boss' boss is rarely the best way to leave a good impression. It mostly signals you have problems working within the structure of the company and you're a 'troublemaker'. Whether that's fair or not, is not too relevant. You might get away with these things if you already have a lot of credibility, but since this was in your first 2 weeks, that's unlikely to be the case.

Your post also gave off some vibes of feeling too good for the job assigned to you. Again, I don't actually know you, so I might be misreading it, but if you give that impression during interviews, you'll have a hard time getting hired. Do you have any friends you could ask to do mock interviews with you? They could give you feedback on not just the quality of your answers, but also the way you answer.

Edit: Oh thought of one more comment regarding expecting to get rewarded for calling out issues. Typically it's not the person calling out the problems that gets rewarded, but the person that fixes them. Just calling this out, since you might be under the impression that you are adding a lot of value, while your boss might not see it that way. Honestly, the best way to add value is to do the job assigned to you. If you want to stand out, do it better and faster than expected.

It's good to be observable but just because your idea hasn't been implemented before doesn't mean no one has thought about it. At big companies there is friction in place for any change.

As someone new I think the best way to bring up something you notice is to ask your manager or a peer something like "Hey, I noticed we're not doing X and it could be a problem. Is there a reason for that?" That will allow them to fill you in on the context and organizational history.

If you bring up an idea, especially if it's been discussed many times before, and start raving about how it should be implemented, your co-workers are going to lose a lot of respect for you because you haven't taken a chance to learn first.

It comes down to you not having much power to fix anything as a child and parents who praise you for pointing out significant issues.

Anyways, it's not how society or workplaces work.

Speaking as someone who has interviewed a few dozen candidates, this likely means you're rubbing people up the wrong way. Based solely on reading this comment alone:

> I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks

If I interviewed someone who told me they left their previous job because they weren't progressing after raising issues immediately after being hired, that would be a hard no from me.

This.

OP's tales convey the idea of someone who holds himself at an uniquely high esteem that's not shared by anyone who contacted directly with him.

I mean,it's highly unusual that someone that barely can land an entry-level customer support role and still fails to keep it would be able to meet the bar of any of the FANGS, specially when they value personal traits.

To make matters worse, in the few jobs he managed to land he proceeds to act in ways that antagonize their leadership,both direct and skip-level, and also create problems for everyone around instead of solving them.

Managers want to hire people to solve their problems and help move things forward, not create more problems and act as a blocker.

You won't ever get a promotion within two weeks, especially not over a single instance of good work. Do it a hundred more times, then think about a promotion.

I think you seriously need to re-evaluate your expectations about this stuff.

This is really important. Not only will it make your time at a company much easier, it will increase your chances of promotion and it will make it easier to get future jobs as you will have one happy manager who is willing to vouch for how good you are.

I'm currently mentoring a person who is transitioning into an engineering manager and this person has a noticeable stutter, but is an incredible candidate. If you don't like your southern drawl, change it. I'm from a place with a very strong accent but you'd never know it.

If you're getting a rejection to an application like "overqualified" or "not a good fit" it likely means your resume wasn't tailored to the position or there is something unbelievable about it.

Dude. What are you thinking? You get hired in a CS role and you're raising red flags about security issues and expecting more than a pat on the back?

I've been a supervisor. Trainer. CS agent. Let me tell you what I see: A guy comes in with tons of supposed experience but gets a CS job. All he does is talk about what an awesome dev he is and all the work he's done. Highly opinionated, and feels he's above the job but "Hey I gotta work so I'll do whatever I can for now." Nice. Not.

Two weeks in he sees a security issue. Does he bring it to me? No, he sends a detailed e-mail to the VP in charge of the anti-fraud system. Scratch "team player" off the list. And now he wants something more than a pat on the back? He went above and beyond in finding an issue but didn't follow the proper channels to report it and then expects a promotion to another department before he's even had his 90 day review? WTH?

I've managed folks who've pulled crap like this, and I was not impressed. You need to learn your place and get off your pedestal. If you're going to sit at the right hand of the king, by all means aim for it! But don't start off by showing off and telling the king all the reasons YOU should be his right hand man. Instead, work your way up patiently. If you're "all that", then he will choose you.

TL;DR: Humble yourself. Do the job your were hired for and do it well! Work your way up by proving you deserve it, not by insisting that you deserve it. Promotions are earned.

And no one gets promoted in the first year.

You need to be a fulltime dev somewhere, and without a degree (let alone from a great school) or experience, you're not aiming at a company likely to hire someone like you. Startups won't either; to be blunt, you're a giant project I would have to pour senior engineering time into to maybe get a competent junior dev on the far side. If you don't flake again.

My suggestion is either a coding bootcamp (I've hired out of appacademy.io), or finding a company big enough to have (super) junior engineers -- meaning a devteam probably 75+ -- and impressing someone enough to get a job there. Then you need to bust ass for the next two years, and show a hiring manager elsewhere that you're worth taking a shot on.

Hiring a person has a pretty high fixed cost for the company (in time spent setting things up, doing their end of the paperwork, making time to show you the ropes, etc.), and it's only worthwhile if it's an investment - i.e., if the person being hired stays.

Your resume gives an employer absolutely no reason to believe that you'll stay. So you have to be extremely convincing about that when you talk to them - that means you have to be extremely convincing that you'll be happy working at a job even if it's not the right fit for you, even if they don't recognize you as much as you think you deserve, even if the internal email system maxes out at 1 GB.

(The person who's hiring you almost certainly also has an ambition to a higher role, has been slighted for recognition before, and has their own complaints about the IT setup! I've never heard anyone say "My company is over-promoting me and our internal email system is too good." So if you give them any reason to believe that those sorts of things are dealbreakers for you, and not things that you too will put up with, they'll expect you to leave. They're not going to convince themselves it's fine to hire you because that problem won't happen here.)

For instance, if they ask you why you left Amazon, you'd better not be saying "I found an important problem and I didn't get recognition for it." Tell them you had a personal emergency or something.

Can I push on that a little? Lying is a Bad Move. There are, however, ways to finesse the conversation if it comes to that.

But there's literally no reason you can't just come out and say, "I wasn't getting benefits, and I need benefits." Honesty works there. It's fine to say, "I'm looking for a career with a brighter future than warehouse work, and I think I have the skills to work here because {insert experience}."

I'm not a frequently flyer on either side of the interviewing table, so I don't know for sure how this sort of advice sounds, but when I interview I expect honesty. If the process isn't candid, neither party is happy and there's a lot of wasted time and money on both sides.

"Why did you leave Company X?"

"I hated it and was fired for low performance. But I'm much better now!" said no one ever.

Say "family emergency" and they'll always take you at your word and leave it at that. Just don't overdo it -- more than one of those might look a little fishy.

I don't advocate lying (and as a personal quirk I'm very unlikely to tell an outright lie). But it's going to be very difficult to explain why you left all of those jobs in a way that doesn't scare an employer. If you can drive the conversation to roughly "it was a bad time in my life," that seems a) basically true b) personal enough that it'd be unprofessional for the interviewer to probe for details c) unlikely to make the interviewer fear that it will be an ongoing problem.

I guess the real advice here is, come up with an answer for this very foreseeable question, which you can say with a straight face and without getting yourself into more trouble.

If you work at a place for two months, don't put it on the resume?

If you have a gap in your employment, you need to be able to talk about that, but you don't have to talk about each stop.

In an interview, I'll ask about gaps. One ran something like, "I was laid off in {year} and took {weeks} to recover. It took me {months} to find a job at {company}. I took the role because of my financial situation, but I'm interested in you because I think our situations overlap better." That's not quite verbatim, but similar to what I had with someone we hired (I was part of the interview team, but I've never been a hiring manager). It didn't raise any red flags to me. His experience at his prior employer wasn't good, but he communicated effectively that he felt like we'd be a better fit, and we were.

Anecdotally, we had a candidate come in who was junior but pretty well educated. A thin resume in his situation would have been fine: we understood where he was coming from. I perceived a little insecurity from the two-page resume that could've been reduced to a few line items with a stronger emphasis on skills he brought to the table, and with a little probing on technical matters found that his purported experience was not what I would've expected from his background. Less in this case would've been more.

I don't know the OP from Adam, so I'd hesitate to offer much advice here; from the comments I'd think that there's a good reason to talk to a good counselor about the personal background and challenges and address the professional retooling after: but that's hard when you're down on your luck without money. Churches often offer this sort of service, but reading between the lines I'd guess that may not be an avenue for the OP.

Professionally I'd concentrate on starting over or looking to see if there are trade schools that would accommodate. One local to me is completely free and would provide a skillset for at least earning a living while trying to pursue other interests.

One thing that may suck, but want to make you aware is that chances are you need to do things worse temporarily, before they become better. You may need to put extra effort now (go to community college etc), for reward later.

One program I'd suggest you explore is AWS Re/Start, https://aws.amazon.com/training/restart/ ... it may be right for you (Amazon also has a similar internal program).

Almost nobody will give you a firm reason for why they rejected you for a job. If you press them, they'll offer vague shit like the examples you gave. Accept this; it sucks, but it's the way things are. You're not being "ghosted".

As others have said, it is absurd to expect a promotion within a few months of hiring in a low-level position. "Working your way up from the mailroom" still involves spending time doing actual work in the mailroom, not barging into the boss's office day 1 and demanding a raise because you found some stamps that fell behind the desk.

I'm hesitant to tell you to go back to school, because that can be expensive as hell, but maybe look into your state universities? Tuition can still be reasonable at some of them. If you're no longer a dependent of your parents, maybe you'll qualify for better financial aid. Also, some schools (including my alma mater, RIT) offer free tuition for employees--even if it's just mopping floors, you're making money and getting an education.

This needs to be reiterated. It doesn't matter if you're smarter than Donald Knuth if you come across poorly or can't answer interview questions. Based on your background I suspect you answer the interview questions but you have no idea how to work with people.

Working with people that are nice is hard, working with people that are 'difficult' is damn near impossible and you sound difficult. When someone presents an idea to you that's actually stupid what do you say? How do you tell people no? Do you think about the feelings of those around you before you say something? These are things that can be taken for granted but are important for working within an organization (which you have limited experience with).

I'm awkward as all hell but was able to make it in industry by consciously improving the way I interact with other people (especially when I don't agree with them). This isn't an insurmountable challenge but you have to identify what's causing you problems before you can fix it.

But neither can you be a washed up 20-something begging for pity. You are probably a bit too competent and proud for that.

What you should do instead is be a "forever student". Now you are never there to snag the gig or steal the credit. You are there to study an "x". The x can be broad and impressive or narrow and miniscule. Jobs, businesses, investments, products, are all vehicles for pursuing this study. You will signal this at all times, and develop contacts and portfolio work pertinent to this study. Earnest emails asking "what should I do to go further with this" - questions that are of interest to the figure you are asking as well as yourself - are often golden tickets. Choose anything to start, and see where it pulls you. When you are in the vicinity of a good conversation and money is flowing around it, the money often ends up in your hands.

However, you also have to work on yourself enough to be a great student. That means valuing your body, household, social conduct and other things, and to see "access to resources" in a broader sense than salary. Taking a shit job or sacrificing some living conditions can be the right move if it buys you time, but if it makes your health deteriorate it might be the wrong move too. People get a lot of comfort out of doing the simple stuff well, and you have decades to get the big picture things right. It's OK to be unambitious.

Do some self-talk, journal a bit, exercise, eat well. Aim to get the concerns "out of you" so that you can act in the world with focus and purpose.

That might be good news, because you don’t have to change yourself but reframe your perspective.

Preferably I’d suggest a mental health professional who focuses on your self narrative.. but I understand that can be expensive.

Perhaps you could do something like a HealthyGamerGG coach. They are more affordable, and I think they’ll be able to give you the feedback you need to get past this.

Best of luck!

2) I get a weird vibe from the way you write/speak

3) I've been cold rejected from almost every one of those companies you listed, and I'm a senior engineer with a decade of experience making SV money and doing just fine. Look for smaller companies that people haven't heard of, there are thousands. It took me years of working at small startups before I broke into the big corps.

4) someone mentioned "tainting" your rep with non-dev jobs and sadly this is true. You need to get dev experience on your resume no matter what, the good news is that it's never been easier. Come up with an idea, build something, buy a $2 domain, and bam, you are now a fancy Founder of Tech Project and have dev experience on your resume, not manual labor. Bonus points if you actually stick to the project. Speaking of which...

5) Build projects. Like as many as you can. I aim to build a new project 1x a month just to keep in the habit. Anytime I need to interview, I have tons of live, production software examples to show off. HMs love to see someone who can ship code. It is the #1 thing I would do if I were you to get a job. Build anything. Just build stuff and put it online. This is the next best thing to having formal W2 jobs on your resume.

6) totally random and I'm not affiliated, but check out usertesting.com. I sent this to a friend the other day who is also struggling to break into tech - they will apparently pay $10 for every 20 minutes of testing. Better than being homeless and at least it's in tech and seems relatively accessible.

7) some of the best dev gigs and jobs I found early on in my career were diamonds lost in the Craigslist rough, just sayin’

Wishing you the best of luck.

The QA on Apex, that's just churn and burn contract work to play a game and fill in some surveys and do this/do that...

IBM? Sounds like you were a contractor... i would have stuck that out - IBM often graduates contractors to FTE's and IBM will often pay for your school too.

If there are no managed services providers or no rackspace type companies around, find a contracting agency that does IT work - and do the same, show you can read a manual, do a job and start growing, building a rapport and getting some work under your belt.

But whatever you do, don't be a hacker, be an employee. They pay you to do what you were hired to do.

Don't have a friend? Hire someone. A friend cannot do mock interviews? Hand them a list of 10 questions that you remember from all those previous attempts and tell them to read it in solemn voice.

Nowadays the interviews are remote. Let a friend observe your interview and then ask their opinion. (I think recording these might be likely illegal? idk)

I did a mock interview with a friend a while back. But good suggestions for sure.

Or ask not-a-friend. A random person who is skilled in interviewing and doesn't have a personal relationship with you may give you more true answers.

I get the feeling from your writing that you are conflating social signalling and personal economic outcomes. You seem to want people to think you are smart more than you want to succeed? Or at least those ideas seem in conflict.

Do you want a job at a Big Name or do you want money?

Have you thought of starting a business? That way you don't need permission from other (besides customers) to succeed.

Probably better is, as many others have suggested, to get a job a smaller company that will have you. Then build something on the side.

You are losing the game you are trying to play, so try playing a different one. You could play the making enough to support yourself game. After you get good at that you can play the start your own business game, or the make websites for friends and locals game.

Your ego is getting in the way of you feeding yourself and putting a roof over your head. It's not worth it. I can't think off the top of my head anything that is.

There is no shame in not fitting into Silicon Valley. Consider moving on.

I'm going to speculate that maybe the op has crossed a threshold from 'eager' to 'desperate'. That's not helpful to the job search. At this point the poster knows the industry, he probably identified a few quirky opportunities for people with similar resumes get on promising job tracks. Stay close to those, figure out how you can be useful to folks in those spaces and demonstrate it to them. And most importantly-- this is hard-- find enough peace and stability in your current situation so you don't come across as desperate, just eager.

It's the little things, like how inconsistently you're cutting up sentences with periods, how you leave off the subject of the sentence in a couple of places, and the typos (lowpay, dropout, promt as quick examples).

Honestly? Find a way to speak to a therapist. Many options available for people without insurance, some are even free. If you could land a diagnosis, you could begin to understand what's holding you back (if anything) or if there are just some things you could work on (like slowing down a bit).

Either an unsexy job coding (short term contract work, etc) - or - seriously beef up your open source (github, gitlab etc) portfolio with some really top notch contributions and ideally some projects of your own.

Also - I know this might be controversial, but drop the fsf email at least for your job applications. I'm a huge fan of FSF but I can tell you it's also flagging you as a potential over-zealous, opinionated person and all things being equal someone equivalent who seems pragmatic without that is going to get the job.

You can drive a semi-truck. That was my solution for pay and health care, after destroying my software career. Most large trucking companies either have their own CDL school or contract out. Driving a semi-truck is a learnable skill, and you will get hired. My company paid for my school, requiring a year of work or I'd have to pay it back.

Short term, if you're "really" scared, you can get hired anywhere as a security guard. That was also my solution, until I figured out truck driving was viable.

If you don't find any "in-career" suggestions that work for you in this thread, think out of that career box.

I don't think I'm a know it all. I'm only in my early 20s. I definitely have a lot to learn, and I'm receptive to new stuff.

As other comments have mentioned you have to stick to something for a while. You didn't even finish school so you cant even say "At least I stuck with my degree". The way you read to me is that you will jump ship the moment you aren't liking something.

> I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation

Two things about this:

If you don't feel the compensation is appropriate you shouldn't take the job in the first place. If you've been somewhere for a while and been a high contributor then ask for a raise. Two months isn't nearly long enough to make that assessment.

Also you say you contribute "a lot" but I'm betting that it's not as much as you think. It probably only feels like a lot because you haven't ever stuck around anywhere long enough to see what "a lot" looks like. Hint: It's a marathon, not a sprint.

If I were you I'd try and get one solid year of a job on my resume, to start with. You said you're worried about becoming homeless anyway- why would you quit a $15/hour job if you don't have anything else lined up? Unless it's just a really toxic/destructive situation, that seems like a mistake. Paying the bills for the time being and building up some solid work experience seem like aligned goals right now. The healthcare thing is unfortunate (it's unfortunate that anybody in our society has to be in that position), but I don't think quitting without another offer is going to help.

Best of luck.

I had a stint of about 2 years of job hopping every 3-6 months at the beginning of my career. Worked great for me every time.

The trick is to get the new job while you still are employed, not quitting and then looking for something new. Employed = attractive to other employers, but still a bit of a red flag. Unemployed = just a big red flag.

Do you mean ... ageism against young people? I think from what it sounds like your expectation of compensation might be a little inflated based on your experience. Straight out of university I took a junior grad job that paid peanuts, but stuck with it for about 2 years and that was a solid basis to move somewhere that was a much better work environment and paid better.

I think as another poster may have said, you probably just need to stick it out with something for a couple of years to get that solid basis. As you say, if you're in your early twenties you have plenty of time and it's just the start of your career!

I don't understand. Aren't tech jobs generally in favor of young people? I've heard ageism against old people, but not the other way around. I guess you're mistakenly associating people's negative reactions with your age?

There's also a wealth of employeres who will hire people for below-market pay, and those are exactly the type of people who need to prove themselves and can't really afford to leave the job. It's kind of a catch-22, and hard to empathize with people in this situation once you've earned your stripes and feel you're past it.

The problem with OP is that they haven't been able to get the kind of job where they really respect your abilities. But they haven't gone through the grind to show prospective employers they're worth that.

I get it, that grind is really demoralizing, stressful, and stacked in favour of the employers. If you're actually capable of doing work that commands higher pay, but you don't have the network, the social skills, or the qualifications (including work history and references), I get why you'd feel jaded. I was in the same boat 6 years ago and still haven't fully shaken the mentality its left me with.

Anyway, just wanted to remind those of you who have distanced yourselves enough from that period of your lives, or who maybe skipped it altogether with recognition in the form of a degree or open-source contributions, that ageism definitely swings the other way as well.

Compensation is a negotiation game, so go and learn to negotiate well. One key aspect is to understand the perspective of the other side. In this particular case, you would learn that giving pay raises "out of cycle" is a pain for all involved, and a manager doesn't want to discuss salary every time a report of his does something great.

If you want something, make it easier for others to give it to you.

You need to work somewhere, literally anywhere, for at least a year.

Hiring and on boarding is expensive, such that virtually no software companies are getting any ROI for someone who is there for two months or less. I get you may have had impact early on at these places, but I guarantee they all still lost money on you.

tldr; on paper you're a losing bet, build a history of being a winning bet and more companies will come around.

Also, at least in tech, almost no company will have made any serious attempt to evaluate your contributions after two months. It's assumed you're still figuring things out (both technical and social/political) and not making meaningful contributions until well past that point, and the nature of things you'll do even two years into a job are qualitatively different from those you're doing two months in (even if you are finding things that are valuable to do). So they don't have the data to re-evaluate you two months in, even if they had the process.

It is of course technically possible for someone sufficiently senior at the company (like, head of HR, C-suite, etc.) to override the standard process. But why should they do that for you? It's generally not in their interest, because it will endanger their own relationships with all the people under them implementing the standard process, even if it's the right decision, and they have no reason to be confident that it's the right decision.

I think that's something you need to figure out. What happened with the SVP/CISO phone calls that you mentioned in your post? What did you tell these people, whose job isn't recruiting candidates (there's a whole different department for that), to convince them to bypass the usual process and stick their own necks out and risk their own position to get you into the system? What did they say in return?

Friend, this here's the problem. Consider that a working environment _when it's going well_ is a mutually supporting cooperation of individuals to some basic end. Could be you're creating something new, could be you're maintaining something but, the big thing to understand is, you're doing it with other people and you're all relying on one another _to do your share_. Ageism, Southern accents (hidy, fellow Southerner) and other biases haven't got anything on this one problem: you quit. Two months in isn't anything, even if you are talented and, to be blunt about it, two months isn't enough time to develop anything but a surface level understanding of something. There's no way to look at a resume with a string of 2-month stints and think that you'll be around to _do your work_ and that'll impact the team.

Hell, a few years ago I did a very short stint -- something like six months -- at Unity, moved on to Dropbox with my team from Unity and then got fired from Dropbox within four months. At this point I had 15+ years in my career and when I was searching for jobs _everyone_ asked me to explain why I'd switched jobs so rapidly. It's just a big red flag, even if you're someone that has shown they'll come and do the work all the rest of your career.

> I contribute a lot...

This contradicts you working no more than two months. _You_ might feel like you contribute a lot but I would suggest that if you stuck out a job for a year and then considered what you'd got done in that year what you see as "a lot" now won't seem like much.

> and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation.

Tell you what, in my heart of hearts I feel like everyone ought to make a living wage no matter how unstable of an employee they are and no matter how inflated their sense of their work is. But, in the US that's not the system we have. Your compensation is some function of the employer's sense of your worth derived from your past work history, what you negotiate for and a discounting based on your perceived risk to the employer. Someone that will not work for more than two months is a _very_ risky employee and will get a heavy discount on their compensation for the first year because of it, at least. You probably are getting appropriate compensation in this system of ours based on how unreliable you are.

It seems to me from what you've said here that you've dug yourself into a very deep hole. I don't know why you have done this, friend, but you have. If you're near homeless suggestions to do Bootcamps or finish schooling -- while _extremely_ valid, you should eventually do one of these things -- are probably too late in the game for you. I second recommendations to reach out to headhunters and land yourself any kind of gig and then stick with _whatever_ you get. Pay's going to be shit because you're a risky hire. Don't prove to be a risky hire. Keep doing good work, consistently. After a year, ask for a raise. See about finishing your schooling but DO NOT QUIT YOUR JOB. After a _few years_ start interviewing for another gig without quitting your job first. People are going to ask you about your resume of 2-month stints and you'll have to explain it as a thing you've grown out of, because if you get to this point you will have done.

Godspeed. My email's in my profile if any of this has struck a chord and you'd like to talk or what not.

I don't hire people to promote them in two months. If I thought they were going to be up for promotion that quickly I'd have hired them at the next level up to start with.

Similarly, how can you feel like you're not getting appropriate compensation when sixty days ago you agreed to that wage? Everyone contributes a lot, that's what they're paid to do. Most large orgs of the type you've listed have set promotion cycles and nothing you do short of buying the damn company is going to get you special consideration for that.

Also, ageism doesn't really work that way for lower-level jobs like you've described. People in tech are not afraid to hand responsibility to a young employee who has demonstrated responsibility. Related: you cannot possibly demonstrate responsibility in two months. Two months is essentially zero hours of tenure. I don't even consider an engineer fully onboarded before they've been here a year.

I think you need to focus on strategic thinking rather than ladder-climbing at your next job. Get a foot in the door and then start asking yourself how your contributions can align with the strategic goals of your org, then work along those directions. Keep your sense of entitlement tamped down, because most managers do not want to hear it, but pursue opportunities within the org as they come your way.

At this point you need to hold a job for at least five years just as damage control for your resume. By then I think you'll have a better sense of how to handle these places.

Interview prep: Then try getting good at Case jnterviews, which are good for structuring your thoughts in an interview session. I really like Victorcheng.com .

Network: Then you must network, you must be part if a social graph to make it.

Social skills: Force yourself to be outgoing. If you are not already, it is a fresh skill that needs to be maintained.

Career councelling: And you must have a narrative that does not paint you a picture as a quitter. Get a pro to redo your CV and get interview coaching.

You are not alone in struggling to get going in the market. My advice here will work if you take the long hard road. This thread also contains a lot of good advice for you.

This is great as it exposes you to a ton of different technologies and problem spaces (graphics heavy, data heavy, b2b, b2c etc). Each new project is a clean slate without the mistakes you previously made, or a chance to see how other people have put things together (and possibly learn from their mistakes).

The problem with these jobs is that sticking with them long term isn't for everyone; deadlines are often out of your control, as is the budget, because you're effectively working for a third party. They also tend to not pay big bucks, but they should still do better than most of what you seem to have had so far.

Once you get to a point where you feel confident leading teams of people, start looking at working for companies that make their own product- anything from FAANGs to small startups with good funding and existing customers (or whatever tells you that they are stable enough for you to be comfortable).

You don't have to follow this path of course, but it is a relatively safe one.

Also, if you aren't close to a decently sized city with any agencies or contractors, it couldn't hurt to go on LinkedIn and make sure that you have your programming experience- professional and hobby- listed. Also, be sure to log in at least every few days; logging in seems to give you a bump in search results. For me, LinkedIn is basically a place for recruiters to cold contact people, which may be helpful.

Final note: if you do get contacted by a recruiter about a position, see if they are working for the company they are advertising or not. If they are not, then they are likely getting a commission from placing you- and if they are any good, they can help coach you (and might be willing to do a practice interview if you ask very nicely). I will admit i haven't tried that last bit, but the two jobs I got through recruiters they were both genuinely good people who wanted to help however they could.

College and good internships will improve upon all of that. If you can’t afford college, you’ll need to join the military (I recommend the Air Force if you want to take it easy, or the Marines if you don’t) and slave for four years. But it seems to me that your biggest stumbling block may be that you are shooting for the moon without realizing it.

If: * you're under 30 * you don't have any health problems or diagnosed mental health issues * you don't have a criminal record (or it's trivial stuff) * you are willing to make a drastic change in your relationship to authority

then the military might be an option. You won't like it, and they absolutely not put up with any shit about you knowing better than your superiors (hint: it's completely irrelevant if you do), but that is a way to hit reset.

You mention the CIA and they can be pretty selective, but that also suggests you're okay with patriotism. Remember the way to tell a recruiter is lying is their lips are moving. If you want a specific job get it in writing, and then assume a 50:50 chance.

If you want a job that translates to the outside world and aren't keen on getting shot at, I recommend the Air Force. The Navy isn't that bad in that regard either.

I don't know about the "creep" feedback here, but it sounds like any experience learning how to be a good guy to work with would be helpful. I'd look at Joel Spolsky's writing as a guide to tech industry norms, or Laszlo Bock on trust in teams. Once you have the luxury of time, I would look for books or movies or shows that show problem solving teams in action, just to get some more insights from examples. Emphasis on "team". "Soul of a New Machine", by Tracy Kidder, wsa eye opening for me, though that's a picture of the industry from ~50 years ago. Ellen Ullman, too.

Yeah, it's unsexy work, but it pays okay, and if you prove yourself, it can lead to some senior roles. There are lots of folks that I work with now that started in contract QA and worked their way up to 6+ figure gigs inside the company.

That should be your #1 priority. Absolutely anything. Just apply to everything until you get something. Once you have income that you control, then start applying for computer industry jobs.

Avoid homelessness at all costs, that’s a really big hole to get out of.

Doing a job that doesn't satisfy your pride or goals or expectations is much, much better than homelessness.

I actually sent my resume in .txt to a job. HR called me and asked me to resubmit it in Word. So I changed the extension to .doc, emailed it over.

I was hired.

(But really, with the problems you're having, use Word. This was just a funny but true anecdote.)

Also, you seem to be listing big name tech companies and startups. Have you tried looking at non-tech companies? Sometimes the medium to small non-tech companies are more forgiving about not having a degree.

I'm not sure where you are located, but maybe look at jobs in other regions. Sometimes you can take a lower paying job in a cheaper region (with less competition) and do well.

I've tried applying to some smaller companies who might be willing to take a risk on me. Haven't had any better luck with those. I live in the south, there aren't a lot of tech companies local to me. Just oil/gas companies.

In terms of first impressions: a lot of consecutive 2 months stints will look very bad on your resume - a lot of places have 3 months probational period. I don't know what the story is, but this could an issue of tact (i.e. navigating office politics, not antagonizing your boss, that sort of stuff), it could be an issue of confidence (either too much impostor syndrome, or being overconfident and over-entitled), it could be that you're not cut out for the field (black-and-white quitting over disagreements is generally the worst solution to problems compared to compromising, strategic teamwork or just flat out sucking it up). You're gonna need to do some introspection, and you need to prioritize figuring out how you can hold a single job for 3 years. Also, with a job history full of red flags, name dropping famous companies will probably do the opposite of what you want. Consider focusing on selling skillset etc and downplaying (or even omitting) work history.

Be realistic and specific about your actual skillset vs your target role (either you are proficient in ios/js/golang/whatever or you're not, don't "fish" around for "any role")

In terms of target companies: you mentioned FAANG class companies. A lot of these companies tend to look for senior level as a baseline. Consider applying to less competitive jobs (i.e. companies without brand recognition). One way to go about this is to reach out to recruitment agencies.

In terms of balancing target goals and immediate needs: prioritize according to Maslow[0], i.e. it'll do no good trying out your luck trying to find a prestigious 150k+ salary job who knows when if it means your cash flow will make you homeless in 2 months with high probability. Better to swallow your pride and go for something less ideal at least until you can stabilize your financial situation.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

- Find a local programming or software or security group, get some contacts. Have people mock interview you as though you are applying for a job at their organization. Have them be brutally candid. My guess is that you come across as some combination of arrogant and disjointed, just from the writing and the patchwork of roles. See if someone will tell you that (or something else!) to your face.

- You need to build a narrative. I also do not have a college degree, and in the early days of my career it was very challenging to get people to talk to me. The key is to have a very clear story about why you are the best at X and/or Y and how past work funnels into this role you are applying for.

- Companies like google, facebook, etc. have so many candidates that they are totally willing to pass on perfectly qualified people that don't fit the mold of who they want to hire. They see it as a feature, not a bug, but it is not in your favor. Look for smaller companies, maybe less senior roles, maybe contract gigs, anything to build that narrative and give you some resume items.

- You should be networking, with those people from the first bullet point. If you develop a local reputation as someone who is smart and just has a funny resume, you are a lot more likely to get hired. By the same token, if you develop a local reputation as over-opinionated and hard to work with, you will know it and that is why you are having challenges.

- Don't get discouraged about stuff like the manual labor job - they're pattern matching as much as a big company like Google does. They look at your resume and say, "Man, this guy is all over the place, he is going to be more of a hassle than he is worth" and go hire the 19 year old who just wants a paycheck

- Think about consulting, either directly with a company or freelancing on fiverr, etc. Is it exciting? No. Can it pay the bills? Yes. Can it build towards this narrative that you came up with a few steps before? Yes, potentially.

Sounds like you have anxiety tbh.

By industry standards, pay sucks but benefits like health/dental are quite good in many cases (depends on particular state or locality.)

- What's your role? (dev, QA)

- What's your speciality? (python, mobile, etc)

- Are you good at your role and speciality? How can you show so? (I completed this course, read this book, have this portfolio project)

Following supply/demand rules, you will be offered a job when you clearly offer a value proposition that is fits a given company's needs. It's as simple as that.