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To sleep the disks or not: M1 Mini (very basic question)

 3 years ago
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To sleep the disks or not: M1 Mini (very basic question)

Suzatlarge

macrumors member
Original poster
May 4, 2008 Colorado
I have an absolutely "back to the basics," Tech 101 question. I've searched this forum and asked my friend Google but I'm not really finding a satisfactory answer. There's a lot of "conventional wisdom" out there that may or may not be relevant to today's tech including the M1 computers.

Background: I have a shiny new M1 Mini, 16GB/512GB. It plays nicely with my peripherals. They include Apple's BT keyboard, trackpad (older version), and Magic Mouse 2. I also have external hard drives in play, including 2 Fantom HDDs, one for TM and the other for all my files (photo, documents, other), and also an SSD external drive that holds my Music library and files. At this time I'm running one non-fancy IPS monitor via HDMI. This is not a work computer. I don't need "instant on" abilities. The Mini is amazingly cool to the touch even when I've been working in Lightroom/Photoshop.

I don't have it set to run automatic system or app updates. I do not find running the occasional update a hindrance when I'm actively using the Mini.

At this time I've checked "prevent computer from sleeping automatically when the display is off" in System Preferences -> Energy Saver. At bedtime I power off the monitor, and in the morning I power it on and sign on to the Mini. So I assume it hasn't gone into sleep mode overnight. At first I tried putting the Mini into sleep mode when I was done using it for the evening, but the next morning I had notifications that the external drives had disconnected. Bah.

I want to avoid those "incorrect" disconnects/ejects of the external HDDs. If I'm going to let the Mini sleep overnight or when inactive for awhile, I think I'd need to manually eject the HDDs and then reconnect when I wake up the Mini, which I've tried and is a PITA.

And finally, the question: So now that we are in the M1 era, and there's no spinning drive inside the Mini and it runs very cool, what are the advantages and disadvantages of letting it go into sleep mode, as compared to: (1) letting it stay "awake" all the time or (2) just shutting it down completely at night and starting it up again in the morning?

I'm thinking both of what's best for longevity of the M1 itself and what's best for the spinning external HDs. (They are Fantoms; one is 6TB, new, and the other is 5TB, 2 years old, both AC powered. I recently "retired" the 5 year old 4TB Fantom drive that was the TM for my retired MacBook Pro. I've had no problems with any of them - but we all know drive failure is as inevitable as death and taxes even if we don't know when it will happen.) What's worse for the HDs - incorrect ejection or shutdown/startup on a regular basis?

Thanks for entertaining this basic question. If there's an article or post that directly addresses this "sleep or not to sleep" issue for the new M1 Minis + their attached peripherals, I'd love to have a link posted for it.

Reactions: Marty_Macfly

jeyf

macrumors 68000
Jan 20, 2009 1,840
you must be still spinning rust or do you have a SSD

Suzatlarge

macrumors member
Original poster
May 4, 2008 Colorado
you must be still spinning rust or do you have a SSD
I believe I said: The M1 mini has an internal SSD, one external drive is SSD, and two external drives are spinning hard drives.
You can turn off “Put disk to sleep” option. It isn’t needed with your new M1 mini. You can try and see if your external platter drives recognize the command. More than likely, nothing will happen with your platter drives with the option ticked.

I have platter drives connected to my Mac mini and I always turn off that option.

Reactions: Suzatlarge

Suzatlarge

macrumors member
Original poster
May 4, 2008 Colorado
You can turn off “Put disk to sleep” option. It isn’t needed with your new M1 mini. You can try and see if your external platter drives recognize the command. More than likely, nothing will happen with your platter drives with the option ticked.

I have platter drives connected to my Mac mini and I always turn off that option.
Thanks for the advice and info. I don't have that option turned on and I think I'll keep it that way.

Reactions: Apple_Robert

Marty_Macfly

macrumors 6502
Apr 26, 2020
I have an absolutely "back to the basics," Tech 101 question. I've searched this forum and asked my friend Google but I'm not really finding a satisfactory answer. There's a lot of "conventional wisdom" out there that may or may not be relevant to today's tech including the M1 computers.

Background: I have a shiny new M1 Mini, 16GB/512GB. It plays nicely with my peripherals. They include Apple's BT keyboard, trackpad (older version), and Magic Mouse 2. I also have external hard drives in play, including 2 Fantom HDDs, one for TM and the other for all my files (photo, documents, other), and also an SSD external drive that holds my Music library and files. At this time I'm running one non-fancy IPS monitor via HDMI. This is not a work computer. I don't need "instant on" abilities. The Mini is amazingly cool to the touch even when I've been working in Lightroom/Photoshop.

I don't have it set to run automatic system or app updates. I do not find running the occasional update a hindrance when I'm actively using the Mini.

At this time I've checked "prevent computer from sleeping automatically when the display is off" in System Preferences -> Energy Saver. At bedtime I power off the monitor, and in the morning I power it on and sign on to the Mini. So I assume it hasn't gone into sleep mode overnight. At first I tried putting the Mini into sleep mode when I was done using it for the evening, but the next morning I had notifications that the external drives had disconnected. Bah.

I want to avoid those "incorrect" disconnects/ejects of the external HDDs. If I'm going to let the Mini sleep overnight or when inactive for awhile, I think I'd need to manually eject the HDDs and then reconnect when I wake up the Mini, which I've tried and is a PITA.

And finally, the question: So now that we are in the M1 era, and there's no spinning drive inside the Mini and it runs very cool, what are the advantages and disadvantages of letting it go into sleep mode, as compared to: (1) letting it stay "awake" all the time or (2) just shutting it down completely at night and starting it up again in the morning?

I'm thinking both of what's best for longevity of the M1 itself and what's best for the spinning external HDs. (They are Fantoms; one is 6TB, new, and the other is 5TB, 2 years old, both AC powered. I recently "retired" the 5 year old 4TB Fantom drive that was the TM for my retired MacBook Pro. I've had no problems with any of them - but we all know drive failure is as inevitable as death and taxes even if we don't know when it will happen.) What's worse for the HDs - incorrect ejection or shutdown/startup on a regular basis?

Thanks for entertaining this basic question. If there's an article or post that directly addresses this "sleep or not to sleep" issue for the new M1 Minis + their attached peripherals, I'd love to have a link posted for it.
Great question S,


Be interesting to hear what the experienced chaps are going to do in this new M1 era.


I'm going to be hitting this dilemma in the near future, as I finally get my backup solution created for my very 1st Mac.


I too am not keen on having external backup HDD just spinning all the time, and the unknown of what happens when the M1 MBA goes into hibernate mode after a couple minutes of none use.


Best wishes

Martin

Reactions: Suzatlarge

Fishrrman

macrumors Core
Feb 20, 2009 20,662 7,365
My advice and my opinion only:

At night, shut it down. Shut EVERYTHING down.

In the morning, power on.

During the day, when you're away, let the Mini "idle", but "awake, NOT sleeping".
Put your DISPLAY to sleep when you walk away.

There's almost no difference at all in power consumption between a "sleeping" Mini and one that's "awake, but idling"...

Moakesy

macrumors 6502
Mar 1, 2013 1,009 UK
My advice and my opinion only:

At night, shut it down. Shut EVERYTHING down.

In the morning, power on.

During the day, when you're away, let the Mini "idle", but "awake, NOT sleeping".
Put your DISPLAY to sleep when you walk away.

There's almost no difference at all in power consumption between a "sleeping" Mini and one that's "awake, but idling"...
TBH, when it comes to the M1, I wonder what the difference is regarding power consumption between being power off and sleep mode. They hardly use tonnes of watts when fully powered on!!

I'm not saying it shouldn't be switched off, just interested in what the power draw is when idle.

Reactions: Suzatlarge

Suzatlarge

macrumors member
Original poster
May 4, 2008 Colorado
I'm not all that concerned with power draw -I agree that the mini's power use is likely pretty minimal. Although of course it would be interesting to know.

After thinking about this and reading the replies, I think I'm most concerned now about what is best in terms of maintaining those 5TB and 6TB external spinning HDs in good condition. I assume there's some kind of "wear and tear" every time you shut off and restart a hard drive, but OTOH I'm not sure that keeping them powered on 24/7 is all that great either. Hmm.

Marty_Macfly

macrumors 6502
Apr 26, 2020
I'm not all that concerned with power draw -I agree that the mini's power use is likely pretty minimal. Although of course it would be interesting to know.

After thinking about this and reading the replies, I think I'm most concerned now about what is best in terms of maintaining those 5TB and 6TB external spinning HDs in good condition. I assume there's some kind of "wear and tear" every time you shut off and restart a hard drive, but OTOH I'm not sure that keeping them powered on 24/7 is all that great either. Hmm.
Hi S,

Yup, I agree.

Be good to hear how people are balancing the different care needs of larger HDD external storage, and the laptops/Desktops with SSD instant snooze capabilities.

Its great that the M1 is uber power efficient and with SSD on board, so it can instantly go into snooze everytime you leave it alone for 2 minutes. (I.e. It has no issues with having to spin up internal HHD each time it instantly boots back to life again.)

However, old school spinning disk hardrives must hate constant turn off, then back on again.

Reactions: Suzatlarge

ght56

macrumors 6502a
Aug 31, 2020
The hard disk sleep feature does not work with all hard drives over all IO interfaces. Some drives, even with sleep the disks enabled, will never spin the disks down. The chipset used on the drive's enclosure and the drive itself appear to both impact whether or not this feature plays nice with the Mac...additionally, if you have certain software that is constantly reading or writing to the drive in the background, it also will not spin down or it may spin up at random times (e.g., iStat Menus with SMART monitoring enabled). If you have an enclosure/drive that does play nice with the feature, it makes sense to me enable it if you are only using the HDDs very occasionally but want to have them always on. If you are using them often on and off throughout the day, then I would not sleep them. The HDDs are going to wear either way, but a high number of start-stop cycles on HDDs is nowhere near the concern it was say 10-15 years ago. IIRC, this setting has zero impact on SSDs.

Finally, of note on drives, if one of these are your backup drives, I strongly recommend keeping at least one physically disconnected from both the computer and from any AC power source to provide protection against a surge. My Carbon Copy Clone hard drive is separate from my Time Machine drive and the CCC drive is only connected to power/the computer when making a backup---otherwise, it sits inside of a UL 350/TL-30x6 safe.

With the Mac itself, I also like to use the 'prevent computer from sleeping automatically when the display is off' (for when on AC power) and then enable a Hot Corner in Mission Control that puts the display to sleep...and then I'll use the Hot Corner to sleep the display when I walk away from the system. I rarely shut the systems down.

Marty_Macfly

macrumors 6502
Apr 26, 2020
The hard disk sleep feature does not work with all hard drives over all IO interfaces. Some drives, even with sleep the disks enabled, will never spin the disks down. The chipset used on the drive's enclosure and the drive itself appear to both impact whether or not this feature plays nice with the Mac...additionally, if you have certain software that is constantly reading or writing to the drive in the background, it also will not spin down or it may spin up at random times (e.g., iStat Menus with SMART monitoring enabled). If you have an enclosure/drive that does play nice with the feature, it makes sense to me enable it if you are only using the HDDs very occasionally but want to have them always on. If you are using them often on and off throughout the day, then I would not sleep them. The HDDs are going to wear either way, but a high number of start-stop cycles on HDDs is nowhere near the concern it was say 10-15 years ago. IIRC, this setting has zero impact on SSDs.

Finally, of note on drives, if one of these are your backup drives, I strongly recommend keeping at least one physically disconnected from both the computer and from any AC power source to provide protection against a surge. My Carbon Copy Clone hard drive is separate from my Time Machine drive and the CCC drive is only connected to power/the computer when making a backup---otherwise, it sits inside of a UL 350/TL-30x6 safe.

With the Mac itself, I also like to use the 'prevent computer from sleeping automatically when the display is off' (for when on AC power) and then enable a Hot Corner in Mission Control that puts the display to sleep...and then I'll use the Hot Corner to sleep the display when I walk away from the system. I rarely shut the systems down.
ght to the rescue

Thanks for the info. I am soooo out of date with my tech knowledge!

Also, good idea with the power setting when the Mac is on A/C:

With this C19 lockdown I am stuck indoors. The MBA is constantly plugged into a PD USB-C Hub.

Can't be great for the MBA battery, to constantly be fed power, when it is at 100% AND keeps on going into sleep every 2 minutes of non use.


Regards
Martin

Suzatlarge

macrumors member
Original poster
May 4, 2008 Colorado
Can't be great for the MBA battery, to constantly be fed power, when it is at 100% AND keeps on going into sleep every 2 minutes of non use.
I had my MBP set up on the desktop and always powered on. Every so often I would shut it off and then unplug it from the AC power. Usually last thing at night. Sitting unplugged overnight, even powered off, would drain the battery just a bit. If possible, the next morning I would disconnect it from the external monitor and start it up again on battery power alone, and let it run that way for awhile. That would drain the battery some more. It had to be plugged into AC power to run the external monitor, IIRC, but it was connected to a USB hub that has its own AC power so that wasn't an issue when the MBA was on battery power. (I have external HDs connected to the USB hub.) Just my two cents.

Reactions: Marty_Macfly

Leave it on 24/7. No need to sleep. Just turn off the display, or set display sleep if you prefer. Even pre-M1, most Minis use nearly very little power (about 6-12 Watts for most), when idle.

Look at the M1...sips power (6 W at idle), no heat. Amazing. Let it run.

Modern OSes are happy to run 24/7, with an occasional reboot.

Historically...powering on and off HDs is more wear and tear than spinning 24/7 too.
Last edited: Wednesday at 10:06 PM

Reactions: Marty_Macfly

armoured

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2018 ether
With this C19 lockdown I am stuck indoors. The MBA is constantly plugged into a PD USB-C Hub.

Can't be great for the MBA battery, to constantly be fed power, when it is at 100% AND keeps on going into sleep every 2 minutes of non use.
I'm sure more modern batteries and apple chargers are better at this now than they were in the past, but...

...no, it's generally not good for the systems to constantly be plugged in. (I think the sleep aspect is irrelevant). It would be better to at least unplug the charger/turn off power strip when not in use.

I'd even try to use it once in a while as it was intended - i.e. not plugged in - and perhaps run the battery down to a reasonable level (not zero but low-ish).

Again, hopefully apple's batteries and chargers better than others and better than they used to be, but it's a basic fact of batteries that they aren't mean to be charged while at full capacity all the time. That 100% probably isn't actually the full charge to reduce issues, but still...

If you're really going to just run it this way all the time, a Mini would actually be more appropriate.

(Note: I'm not saying doing this is going to immediately kill the battery - I'm talking over the quite long term, like months or even years at a time. If that long term is long enough that user doesn't care, that's their decision of course.)

Marty_Macfly

macrumors 6502
Apr 26, 2020
Hi All,


Its great to be off work for this festive break, I can actually hanker down and try and figure this "MacBook / new tech" thing out!


I found a good web page:

https://macmost.com/a-beginners-guide-to-whether-to-shut-down-or-sleep-your-mac.html


Cool, I'll be killing 2 birds with one stone now:

1. Overnight admin:
(1) Backups onto External HDD
(2) System update functions
(3) MBA not plugged into power. External HDD plugged into A/C.

2. Give the M1 MBA a chance to use its battery overnight. So not at 100% all the time.


Hope the above helps others.

Martin

Reactions: Suzatlarge

Suzatlarge

macrumors member
Original poster
May 4, 2008 Colorado
Thanks for all the replies. Interesting discussion! After working through it, at this time I'm not concerned with power consumption by the mini; it's negligible in the scheme of things around here. Even "wear and tear" on the mini doesn't concern me all that much since it's got an SSD inside. Not to mention, how cool the darn thing is when it's running. I'm more concerned with the health and longevity of the two spinning external drives constantly connected via a powered USB hub. And - belatedly I recalled that bit of wisdom: when in doubt, read the instructions. 🤣

So I went to the website of the manufacturer of those drives. I know: d'uh. And found this:
Can I leave my external data storage device on all the time, or should I turn it off when not in use?

Hard disks are designed with the express intention that they will be left on 24/7, but there is no particular reason that you should leave the drive on all the time. Drive reliability may be affected by repeated power cycles, but over prolonged periods of inactivity it may be advisable to deactivate your drive.
Hmm. They sure don't take a hard position like "You'll KILL the drive by keeping it on!" Or "Don't ever turn it off!"

Now I'm leaning toward just turning off the monitor when I'm away for awhile or at bedtime, and leaving everything else alone - not letting the mini go to sleep. I may try sleeping the mini again, but it seems to result in unexpected ejections of the external drives and I want to avoid that. I think I'll also avoid too many "repeated power cycles" on those external drives.
Last edited: Wednesday at 6:25 AM

Reactions: Marty_Macfly

armoured

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2018 ether
1. Overnight admin:
(1) Backups onto External HDD
(2) System update functions
(3) MBA not plugged into power. External HDD plugged into A/C.

2. Give the M1 MBA a chance to use its battery overnight. So not at 100% all the time.
Everyone has their details; I use my laptop more or less how it was intended to - wherever I want.

Probably the only part of this that requires thought - I unplug it/turn off the power strip when I notice it's fully charged, and if I'm using it and it's running somewhat low and convenient, I plug it in. Basically I just try not to leave it plugged in all the time.

I'm still using a macbook that has the magsafe connector - not looking forward to 'upgrading', because the magsafe shows easily when it's charging/charged, and plugging/unplugging takes no time.

I basically don't reboot without a specific reason - usually system upgrades and the occasional other minor task.

One small note on the above: I don't see much problem with having it plugged in when working at a desk with it. I'd just get out of the habit of leaving it plugged in forever. The suggestions to 'cycle' the battery by running it off the battery - and perhaps down to 10% - is really only necessary occasionally, say once every couple of months. (And if you're not using your laptop unplugged once in a while, just get a mini and let it sleep)

armoured

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2018 ether
I may try sleeping the mini again, but it seems to result in unexpected ejections of the external drives and I want to avoid that. I think I'll also avoid too many "repeated power cycles" on those external drives.
Sleep would be ideal if these unexpected ejections didn't happen.

As far as 'repeated power cycles for the drives' - well, I wouldn't set them to spin down/up every ten minutes. But if you have them spin down/off when the machine is sleeping for longer periods - i.e. just at night - shouldn't be a factor. But awful if they keep showing up as unexpected ejections. (BTW I had this with a few drives and eventually tracked it to a bad cable)

I have been sort of meaning to check but I'm pretty sure that power consumption of spinning drives is not that high; the monitor is likely a bigger drain. Smaller drives noticeably less.

Quick rule of thumb - if you don't feel any noticeable heat with your hand just off the surface (in the relevant use mode), it's probably not drawing much power. If you can't feel any when touching, it's power draw is likely minimal. Only caveat is need to check the power bricks/plugs - sometimes they are inefficient. This isn't exact of course, as some equipment better built to dissipate heat so you don't notice as readily. A kill-a-watt meter is helpful if you want to check at the ac plug (more handy for non-computer stuff really, so handy to have around the house).

mwidjaya

macrumors member
Feb 25, 2004 Australia
Now I'm leaning toward just turning off the monitor when I'm away for awhile or at bedtime, and leaving everything else alone - not letting the mini go to sleep.
This is the way.


My mini acts as a home server and it has been running for years like that.

You can set in Energy Saver panel for display to turn off after x minutes(of inactivity), instead of doing it manually.

Suzatlarge

macrumors member
Original poster
May 4, 2008 Colorado
This is the way.

My mini acts as a home server and it has been running for years like that.

You can set in Energy Saver panel for display to turn off after x minutes(of inactivity), instead of doing it manually.
Thanks; good to know about your home server. I do have my monitor set to turn off after about 10 minutes of inactivity, which of course happens throughout the day. I just turn it off when I'm done using the mini at night.

And, let me say it again: I'm kind of amazed at how cool the mini stays when in use. Gosh.

Reactions: Marty_Macfly

Marty_Macfly

macrumors 6502
Apr 26, 2020
Hi All,


Its nice everyone is chipping in with what set ups work for them


I should have said about my set up. Since Covid19 lockdown, unfortunately my workspace is in the bedroom. My missus has commandered downstairs.

So I don't have the luxury of just leaving everything on overnight. With the lights off, its like "Star Trek" with bleeping LED lights and noises going on! 😆


Overnight what I'm planning to do is to simply move my MBA downstairs, leave it on with no charger, and also plug in the External HDD for time machine backups etc.

Be interesting to see the battery usage of the MBA overnight. When I get a new backup drive, I'm guessing the 1st time I set time machine to go, it will go nuts for a few hours, but calm down after that.


Best wishes, and merry xmas everyone!

Martin

Reactions: Suzatlarge

armoured

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2018 ether
Overnight what I'm planning to do is to simply move my MBA downstairs, leave it on with no charger, and also plug in the External HDD for time machine backups etc.

Be interesting to see the battery usage of the MBA overnight. When I get a new backup drive, I'm guessing the 1st time I set time machine to go, it will go nuts for a few hours, but calm down after that.
There's no particular advantage to doing it at night except for not overlapping with heavy use, just the machine not in use at night. I just leave the backup disk on the desk and plug it in once in a while.

Obviously depends on your work and work setup, but contrary to popular belief, there's no particular magic to having it backup every hour. If less critical work going on and main files in cloud, for example, remembering to do it once a day or so is fine.

Marty_Macfly

macrumors 6502
Apr 26, 2020
I just leave the backup disk on the desk and plug it in once in a while.
Merry xmas Mr A,

Yup, I may certainly do that after the 1st complete backup.


RE: Modern tech

Good point about the cloud computing doing the during-the-day backups.

Also, with my light home use, I really can’t see the M1 being overloaded needed overnight indexing etc.


Interesting times ahead 😊

Best wishes
Martin

armoured

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2018 ether
Merry xmas Mr A,

Good point about the cloud computing doing the during-the-day backups.

Also, with my light home use, I really can’t see the M1 being overloaded needed overnight indexing etc.
Merry Xmas. Obviously depending on your work, you probably just want time machine once in a while.

I'm oldschool and tend to having multiple backup copies of complete computers, both with some archiving (time machine) and bootable backups, etc.

I'm increasingly realising it doesn't make much sense and is way overdoing it. With cloud/syncing for main files, a lot of it is redundant. Then there's all the stuff like applications and systems that I probalby don't need any copies of, or only one or two. A lot of my old backup routine and discs are excessive and silly.

It's getting so it's mostly only photos that is the part that needs some effort on. I'll be winnowing out the cruft of too many backups while getting the photos organised.

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