New York Bill Would Require a Criminal Background Check To Buy a 3D Printer - Sl...

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• by ArmoredDragon ( 3450605 ) on Monday October 16, 2023 @06:11PM (#63929961)

  Don't forget plumbing parts, which are even easier to use to make firearms with than 3d printers:

  https://www.offgridweb.com/sur... [offgridweb.com]

  So also any tools for soldering or welding are also right out as they could make it a more effective weapon. Until somebody builds one with sharkbite type connectors, then other things like rubber gaskets and sealant as well.

  Though I'm surprised they haven't gone after CNC milling equipment yet, but they are going after 3d printers...

  I guess after this proves futile, next step is to make it hard to produce gunpowder, so urine will need to be regulated...

  • Re:

    This would be kind of irrelevant, just like banning 3D printers. It's easy to buy real guns on the black market in New York and elsewhere in North American and it will always remain easy, just like buying drugs. If it's illegal, there will be always be people interested in making money selling it.

    • Re: So...

      But what will you do when it becomes illegal to drink water in New Jersey and then take a piss in New York?

  • Re: So...

    Now you're just taking the piss.

• by dbialac ( 320955 ) on Monday October 16, 2023 @06:33PM (#63930033)

  There seems to be a bit of a hole in this plan. Perhaps one could just go to Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Vermont, Connecticut, Massachusetts or Ontario and buy one there instead.

• Re:

  No, only to "assault-style" 3D printers.

• Re:

  Just lease it.

• SpaceX

  SpaceX 3D prints rocket engines.

• Re:

  And files.

• • Re:

    You're correct. The first thing that needs to be done is responsible reporting. Next would be for people to stop lying their asses off about gun violence.

    According to the CDC [jhu.edu] there were 48,117 total gun deaths in the US in 2022. Almost 30k were suicides.So over 56% of all firearm deaths were Suicide. Not murders, mass shootings, etc. 372 were accidents, 649 were by law enforcement. That leaves 19592 homicides and 411 undetermined. We'll lump the 311 in with homicides and call it 20,003 homicides. So 41%

    • Re: So...

      Yeah I meant actually reducing the number of gun deaths, not play around with how they're counted. We are all aware of how bad it has gotten.

    • Re:

      Oops, I accidentally hit submit before I was done.. I just want to add that The US ranks 64th out of 97 countries per capita for mass shootings [cusersdoug...89010-1pdf] Switzerland, Norway France and Finland all have more people killed in mass shootings per capita. We have more of a reporting problem than a gun problem in the US.

      The supreme court has ruled at least twice now that the job of the police is to investigate and arrest criminals, not protect citizens. The police cruisers may say "protect and serve" but that's not what

• Re:

  Depends on which state and if you filed your 5320.20 in time and got it approved...

• • Re:

    While you're calling people dumb, one should note that this is a state law, not federal, so wouldn't apply in other states regardless of anything else. Furthermore, it's restricts the sale/purchase but not the ability to possess one.

    It's a stupid law anyway (like most gun 'control' laws are), given that 90% metal blanks are just shy of trivial to machine and then you have a durable, metal lower receiver instead of something 3d printed that'll probably work...for a while. Maybe. Moreso, I have to wonder h

• due to shoplifting home depot will need an ID to e

  due to shoplifting home depot will need an ID to enter the store.

• Fertilizer and diesel. That makes for a potent explosive. TImothy Mcveigh used some to level an FBI building.

  Yes: sales of those are already tracked, as a result of that domestic terror attack.

  Also, didn't they start putting something (micro pellets?) in fertilizer to help figure out where it was distributed from (so you can look at boom residue and figure out how to match it to the sale?)

• It's a certain kind of fertilizer, ammonium nitrate that can be used as an explosive... a whole warehouse of the stuff exploded in Lebanon a few years ago.

  Ever since the Oklahoma City bombings, Ammonium nitrate has been heavily restricted and essentially phased out in favor of other, less-volatile nitrogen fertlizers such as Urea and Urea Ammonium Nitrate (UAN 28), which require some additional steps to turn into an explosive. You have to really look to find old-fashioned ammonium nitrate pellets and retailers ask questions when you do.

  But besides that the fact that it is so volatile means it's not used much anymore other good, safer, options.

  • • Re:

      well...yeah pretty much. But hey, ignore the current surging crime statistics after police forces were defunded, neutered, and demoralized into a 'see something do nothing' force...in large part because it's just not worth the trouble anymore.

• Re:

  3D printers have gotten crazy good lately. I remember struggling with one of the first available hobby printers (a RepRap I think), and it was a challenge to print anything to completion. Not anymore. With some modern printers, you scan the barcode on the spool of filament and the software and printer are automatically set with the right parameters for that material. My last printer (a Prusa) was plug and play, set up, turn on, load filament and print. The first print came out flawless (it was a Benchy)

  • Re:

    Name a Prusa that you can get for $150 new and you might have a point. But the smallest Prusa printers start at $400+ and I bet yours cost you $800 or more--which is over 5 times the $150 cost this legislation is targeting. And that's not even taking into account that precision parts would probably need to be printed in enclosed printers and high-strength filaments to avoid warping.

    I think my point stands: $150 3d printers are not a valid target for gun legislation.

    • Re:

      I haven't read the actual bill, but it sounds like they are targeting "3D printers capable of printing a firearm", not specifically the $150 ones. Besides, by the time this bill goes into effect, maybe the $150 printers will already be capable of producing the necessary parts for a ghost gun. The Bambu A1 mini is $300 or so, and it's as hassle free as its bigger brothers.

• Re:

  I'm not the only one! I literally could not get the Creality I bought to print anything. I ended up returning it. After much research, I think that a filament warmer/feeder wasn't working right.. But, I can't tell you how much time it took to get to that point. I'm sure some 13 yr old kid could school me in what I should have been doing or how to do basic tasks like cut this part out of a "drawing" and print it, but I don't have one of those.

  If I were in need of a gun, I know exactly where mine ar

• • Re:

    This is slashdot... I'm not going to waste time reading the whole summary and getting my facts straight before I respond!

    Not to mention it doesn't really matter as far as my argument goes: guy, gal, or whatever they identify as, the fact still stands that they are proposing needless infringement on the freedoms of citizens in the misguided hope of catching hardened criminals.

• Re:

  All I know is what a gunsmith said to me, based on professional opinion but without experimental data.

  She didn't think a 3-D printed barrel would be up to the job.

  If they're passing proof tests now, never mind.

  • Re: Are 3D printed guns really a thing?

    The magic word is "delamination."

    Unlike metal which conspicuously wanders out of its elastic regime or doesn't, 3d prints don't have an elastic regime, and just because it fires the first shot doesn't mean it won't cripple you for life on the second.

  • Re:

    Barrels cannot be printed and last more than one shot, no. However, it isn't that difficult to rifle a hydraulic tube using Electro-Chemical Machining using printed parts for the mandrill. There still needs to be a lot of other metal parts like screws and springs, so they are detectable with metal detectors, but you can make a reliable firearm without any actual firearm parts. Look at the FGC-9 or Partisan-9 as examples.

• The whole concept of "ghost guns" is absolutely filled with cop math. Regular guns with the serial number filed off get lumped into "ghost guns" as do ones with home-milled lowers. The danger of 3D printed guns effectively zero. If this bill was in any way trying to deter the construction of illegal guns it would try controlling mills and drill presses rather than 3D printers.

  • According to TFA:
    "The bill defines a three-dimensional printer as a âoedevice capable of producing a three-dimensional object from a digital model.â

    Umm, that sounds like a CNC mill to me....

    • Re:

      Or a CNC lathe, or a skilled human with drills and files and chisels, or....

      When guns are illegal, only criminals will have power tools.

  • Re:

    But something must be done! Think of the children! Think of the election! We are out in front on this, making you safer!

• Re:

  It’s the receiver, or body, of any firearm that’s the serialized part that is tracked. You can’t possibly print a barrel or even most of the other parts. With the right pre-purchased components, you use the print only as a glorified handle and the rest just assemble as usual including the entire upper receiver which is not tracked. The receiver is the only part you need to print to skirt tracking/laws. Still could possibly blow/break apart but because all the components are machined f

  • Re:

    And that's the bizarre part. Instead of regulating the hard-to-manufacture critical components of the gun such as the barrel (as is done in pretty much every other country), it's the relatively easy to machine (or print) frame or lower receiver which is regulated. And of course that can never change because 2nd amendment, so the regulate 3D printers instead?!
    
    Some people have printed functioning barrels for.22lr rounds. "Functional" meaning that it fired a few times without failing, but using it carri

    • Re:

      If the law were challenged on the basis of the Second Amendment, it would be struck down, as the Constitution definitely protects the right of individuals to manufacture firearms. But this is probably going to be more of a First Amendment issue, like regulating printing presses. Or perhaps something related to the Commerce powers. In any event, it's going to be struck down as soon as it's enforced. It's ridiculous. But it's not bizarre that politicians would try to do something idiotic like this.

      • Re:

        The Second Amendment protects the right "...to keep and bear arms..." Where does the Constitution mention the right to manufacture fire arms?

        • Re: Are 3D printed guns really a thing?

          That's implied. The right to keep and bear is meaningless otherwise. SCOTUS is rather clear on the rights to things required to get arms.

        • Re:

          The word ‘keep’ implies maintenance and making more. Think of ‘keeping’ animals.

    • Re:

      I haven’t seen any 3-D printed barrels, only DIY machining your own from round bar with something like a lathe. It’s not just the 50kpsi or so created in the barrel, the temperatures and low modulus of elasticity of plastics compared to steels means the barrel would have to be insanely thick to not just blow open and even still it’s going to be a gooey melted mess. Just a traditional zip gun is probably more effective and a bad one doesn’t need expensive machine tools.

      • Re:

        They exist, but as you said they are rather thick, impractical and they don't stand up to sustained use. Still... from a few people who put a 3D printed short barrel on an AR15 style rifle: "According to one tester, the fully-printed barrel was able to withstand 65 rounds of.22 LR being fired through it before failing." Best not google that unless you want to be on every no-fly list...
        
        The difference is: you still need some skill to machine a functional barrel from stock. 3D printing one, on a modern

        • Re:

          I found it on bing, still though with the most expensive printers and optimal filament it’s going to be much worse than something you could make from 5” of round bar and a drill press or even just a hand drill and vise in 5 minutes.

• Re:

  Some, but most of these ghost guns are not 3D printed, they were built from "80%" kits. Basically you buy a lower that's only 80% completed. You use some jigs and tools to finish it. These 80% kits don't (or didn't, they may have closed that recently) need to be registered as a firearm. So you end up with a fully working firearm with no serial # and no real traceable history.
  
  The 3D printer part is just hysteria. Yes, you can print one, but they generally suck and why bother when you can get one of the 80%

  • Re:

    These 80% kits don't (or didn't, they may have closed that recently) need to be registered as a firearm.

    As of now, they do [cnn.com]. The Supreme Court unanimously bitch slapped the 5th Circuit judges who ignored the previous ruling which said the administration could continue to regulate these kits as firearms until cases work their way through the lower courts. The 5th Circuit felt they didn't have to follow what the Supreme Court said, and this is the result.

• Re:

  Why 3D print it when you can just machine a proper one? It's really not that hard and lots of us nerds are into metal working.

• Re: Are 3D printed guns really a thing?

  Yes but the good ones include like a parts kit of real guns.

  Like barrel and lock even aren't a "gun" in usa. In most countries you can't just buy most parts to make a gun without them being gun but in usa you basically just have to print the part that holds the gun parts which would have the serial and not the parts that hold pressure while firing.

  This legislation is pretty dumb, you can also buy the 3d printer parts without them being a 3d printer.

• • Re:

    FULLY 3d printed guns have longevity issues.
    
    When you're just printing things like the frame / lower (and recently uppers as well) durability is excellent... https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    
    
    One thing I find kind of hilarious is one of the uppers is named the Biden's Bane

  • Re:

    The police can't "trace ballistics" of jack shit. That whole concept is a bunch of pseudo-science woo. At best it might be able to correlate a bullet having been fired from a particular model of gun. The idea that a bullet can be reliably traced to a particular gun is fantasy. Even when a particular gun model can be identified with ballistic tests those tests can't reliably differentiate between two individual guns of the same model.

    The only way ballistic pattern matching might ever work is if a particular

    • Re:

      That's actually what happens over time. There are subtle differences from cartridge to cartridge, even if you exclusively fire the same brand/weight/loading (which nobody does), which over time impart unique wear patterns on the rifling that can absolutely lead to a match with a specific barrel. Even a brand new barrel might have a manufacturing defect that leads to a unique match.

      It's not for nothing that the expression is, "Leave the gun, take the cannoli."

• Re:

  I've seen slam fire shotguns. I would never fire one myself, but they are trivially easy to make.

• Re:

  Printers should be required to microstamp the parts they produce so they can be traced back to the printer. If it saves even one life it is worth it.

• Re:

  Not in every state. Not anymore, at least.

  Probably, give it time. I'm honestly surprised this hasn't happened yet.

• Re:

  Actually, selling it is perfectly legal, too. You just need to "serialize" it, which involves making a mark of almost anything of your choosing. And such "serial numbers" (and the fact that you're making and selling guns) is not registered or otherwise know to the government.

  If you do it enough, though, or if you are advertising and stuff, then you are a gun business, in which case you do need to get involved with the government.

  But small amounts of personal manufacture and personal sale: totally legal and

• Re:

  A real criminal felon would rather buy a $50 stolen Hi-Point anyway.

  Plus this law would be illegal under/Bruen/.

  It should be a crime to push unconstitutional legislation.

• Re:

  This feature of the law is not a "loophole" or some kind of accident.

• Re:

  Fun fact, if you have a milling machine and the necessary expertise -- and are making the receiver for yourself, not resale -- it's perfectly legal to mill your own receiver without serial number. You'll never be able to sell the thing, doing that means serial numbers, ATF registration, and all that jazz, but for private use it's legal.

• Re:

  Sounds like an idea! DIY ghost 3D Printer kits to make ghost guns! What can go wrong?

• Re:

  The only sanity needed in the Second Amendment is to make it mandatory that every household have at least one firearm. This used to be the law in Switzerland (I'm not sure if they commied out). Firearms are used to stop criminals all the time, the news just doesn't cover it. There was just a case recently where some criminal with a knife ended up in a body bag because his potential victim had a gun. I live in a gun happy place of the US and carry frequently. I am more surprised to hear someone isn't carryin

  • Re:

    Yes, it worked so well for Uvalde.

    • Re:

      Chemistry has always been a hobby of mine since I was a young'in. If I was in that school and wanted to do what they did, I wouldn't need a gun. A few household chemicals and I could have done far worse. Citing one example to prove your point but ignoring the mountain of counter examples in every day life where some criminal is stopped with a weapon is pretty disingenuous. Don't blame the tool because you don't like what someone did with it. Blame the person. I know personal responsibility is a foreign conc

  • Re:

    To purchase most weapons in Switzerland one must have a weapon acquisition permit.
    
    Men have to go through military training and after that, due to tradition, store one SG 550 assault rifle at home. But since 2007 no ammunition for the assault rifle is stored at home and old ammunition was returned.
    
    There was a referendum in 2019 which brings Switzerland closer to the stricter EU rules.

• Re:

  I'm pro gun. They say "3 D printed gun" but the way gun law is now in America, only the part called the "receiver" is a gun. All other parts can be bought online or at a gun store with no background check or anything. Plastic receivers actually hold up pretty well and do not necessarily create a hazard for the shooter. I would not be surprised if there are actually a lot of 3 D printed guns out there. This is just factual background info. If you already know it, I apologize. It seemed like you didn't know.

• If you have to avoid doing certain things for fear the government will ban them, the problem isn't the things you're doing, it's the government.

  • Re:

    Why can't it be both? There are things you should be able to do without the government banning them that are simultaneously things you shouldn't be doing.

    Making firearms is something you should be able to do, and also something nobody should actually be doing.

    If you feel you need a gun and you're not a hunter or a soldier, you'd do far better to focus on improving your community so you didn't feel the need for a gun any longer - and when it comes to a potential tyrannical government... becoming a political

    • Re: We tried to warn them...

      You're a member of the unorganized militia whether you like it or not.

  • Re:

    That's awesome! This needs to be on a T-Shirt.

  • Re: We tried to warn them...

    This is a comment of momentous stupidity.

• Re:

  Guns don’t kill people, filament does.

  • Re:

    In this case I would argue that the 3D printed gun is really a murder weapon: good at damaging humans at close range, while being unsuitable as a hunting weapon.

• Re:

  They'll get my 3d printer when they pry my cold dead fingers from it...

• Re:

  What's next after they have finished with pointy objects and sharp objects? Blunt objects obviously. Seems like a no brainer. Literally.

• Re:

  What's next? We're going to require a background check for bow and arrows, or knives?

  We're already required to show ID to buy a loaf of bread [weis.com], so why not a background check to buy a knife?

• Re:

  Redundant? Really?