Tipping at Self-Checkout Has Customers Crying 'Emotional Blackmail' - Slashdot

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• This kind of thing is usually illegal. Where I used to live, there was a pretty big restaurant that had to pay more than $1M because they were pooling tips with managers (also illegal) among a few other illegal practices. That having been said, the people I know that work at restaurants usually have no idea what's legal and illegal and the managers/owners usually aren't much better. It's especially problematic at the mom-and-pops shops.

  • Re:

    It's always illegal. (And it cost Starbucks over a hundred million.)

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    In the USA, it's not illegal. In fact, many places where you tip advertise that "all tips go directly to your server|driver|whoever" as if that's a feature.

    What is illegal is paying the below-minimum-wage rate that waiters usually get in restaurants. They must legally get their tips. (However, the tips might be pooled with the other waiters, and they just their share. However that's divvvied up.) The waiters have to report their tip income to the tax man.

    If the waiter winds up making less than minimum wage

    • Re:

      "If the waiter winds up making less than minimum wage after tips, the management is required to make up the difference. (And probably fire the employee.) I never hear people mention this part of the federally required deal, and I wonder if even most waiters are aware of it."

      That's interesting.

• Re:

  I suspect the owner pocketing the tips might be illegal in some states.

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    It's illegal everywhere in the US, and has been for decades. The only deduction allowable is the actual transaction cost (on the tip only) if it's paid by credit card.

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    Federal law. But that's only when they are paying the waiter the allowed below-minimum-wage hourly rate. Also, they can force the staff to pool the tips (on the theory that it takes a team to provide service; and in many restaurants it actually is a team who looks after you, not just "your" waiter.)

• It's to pay for electricity for the AIs

  obviously.

• Re:

  Which has been illegal everywhere in the United States for decades (but still happens, but it gets enforced when someone complains, as Starbucks found out to the tune of $105 million [jacksonlewis.com].

  That does tend to happen when companies get caught breaking the law that egregiously. In some states, wage theft can easily be criminal.

  I recently stopped going to a bagel shop because they ask for tips at the drive through window. But if you really want to be pissed off, check out the landlords who want to be tipped [intheknow.com]

• • • • Re:

        And they're working as hard as anybody to eliminate the people part of making what they sell.

        • Re:

          "McDonalds! It's people!" - Charlton Heston

          • Re:

            "In the future, all restaurants are Taco Bell."

            • Re:

              Sorry, but I think Soylent McGreen won that round.

    • • Re:

        Waiters need tips too.

  • You interact with the people who load your bags onto an airplane? Is that another weird US thing? I've been to airports around Europe, Asia, even New Zealand and 1 African country: never is there someone "to load your bags onto the plane." You drop it off at the baggage drop (which is more and more automated these days, anyway) or check-in, the suitcase goes bye bye and you'll see it back again at your destination when you take it off the belt.

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      When you drive up to the entrance of the airport and are dropped off, you can hand your bags to an attendant right there on the street. They take it inside and send it round back. (You don't have to lug it to the check-in counter. In fact, you never need to go to the check-in counter at all. You just stroll over to the automated check-in machine (it's kinda like an ATM) if you need a paper ticket or something. Or just proceed from your taxi directly to the gate, if you have an electronic ticket on your phon

      • Re:

        Those curbside bagagge handlers are reported to make $100k / year, mainly through tips.

        I don't see how that sort of work should commend that level of compensation. You are paying someone to do something you can do yourself, 20 yards away, through a set of doors.

        • Re:

          If you want to do it yourself, you can.

          If you want them to do it, you tip. You *really* don't want your baggage to wind up on the wrong plane, after all.

        • I never really bother with the baggage handlers. Since I have to park at the airport, secure the vehicle (which means make sure the seats can't be folded down for trunk access, etc.), then grab my backpack and rolling suitcase, I don't really interact with the curbside people.

          I don't understand why they need to be tipped. The people getting luggage on and off a plane have a tougher job than the people who get the luggage from the edge of the airport to the plane. Instead, perhaps pay them (as well as the other baggage handlers) a real wage, allowing them to pay for rent at the average rent prices for an apartment + other expenses, like civilized countries do?

      • Re:

        Wow, that is still a thing there? Do you also still have people who pump gasoline for you?

        • Re: Who even gets the tips

          Yes, in New Jersey where you are not allowed to pump your own gas.

  • Re:

    So you are OK with racketeering as a form of business.

  • Re:

    Meanwhile, in other civilized parts of the world where waitstaff are paid a reasonable wage, they DO NOT want you tipping them, and can actually take offense to you doing so. Much like they took offense to you labeling not tipping as being some kind of automatic "cheap skate".

    I mean seriously, do you even enjoy the process of going out to eat when you're paralyzed by mafia-style "sales" tactics that have convinced you it would be a shame if something happened to your food if youse don't cough up a tip? No

• This seems like one of the few cases where tipping is not emotional blackmail. There's no one watching you, and no identified recipient of the tip.

  From the summary:

  Tipping researchers and labor advocates say so-called tip creep is a way for employers to put the onus for employee pay onto consumers, rather than raising wages themselves.

  That sums it up rather nicely. The net recipient of the tip is the greedy asshole who owns whatever place of business that operates the self-checkout demanding a tip from you. That tip is sure as shit not going to whatever human staff they have left either since employers pocketing tips seems to have become a standard business practice these days and it's not like the self-checkout will be uprooting itself after closing, dragging its machine ass off to a droid bar and spending the tip money on a well earned oil bath. A tip is basically the business owner guilt-tripping you into subsidising his labour costs instead of his paying his workers a living wage. That is all the more offensive since that self-service machine enabled that business owner to fire the human who used to operate the till. If these businesses could automate completely and operate without any human staff they'd still be asking you for a tip.

• Re:

  After you refuse to tip the machine, it turns up the volume (so you can hear it), and says:

  "So, with food, tax, and A TIP OF ZERO PERCENT, your order comes to $XXX. Have a wonderful day!"

• As an American that served in the Marine Corps and traveled the world I agree with you. Tipping is definitely an American thing. Also in my travels almost everywhere I went haggling on price was a thing too. In the US you are expected to pay the "advertised" price. Nuts to that, I tried haggling in stores when I got back to the States and it worked! It often requires a manager to intervene but it works. My wife at the time thought I was nuts and a bit embarrassed by it, until I scored a television at Wal-mart for 1/3rd off the price pointing out that it was a model from the previous year and the new models were already out on the shelves. Then she had me haggling on her behalf everywhere, LOL.

  • My wife almost treats it as a sport... haggles like hell with a combination of jokey banter and firm walk away tactics for some tourist souvenir to the point that I feel embarrassed she's crushing the price so low - eg. getting some wooden box with untold hours of detailed work for 1/4 of the $20 asking price.. We have compromised now - whatever she haggles down to, we actually give the guy double that, if he handles it gracefully.

    The US has many fine things going for it. Tipping is not one of those. Where I live, people who continuously fail to do their job well and keep customers happy get fired, but on the other hand all employees, permanent or casual get a minimum wage of $21/ hour plus 10% super, and permanent employees also get super, and 4 weeks paid leave per year. Casual workers get a minimum of 4 hour shifts and have a right to convert to permanent employment after 1 year of work with the same company, if they want. Somehow, I still seem to get good service, hot coffee and my meals served to me when I eat out at restaurants and cafes, without the staff having to get paid tips. Oh - and I know exactly how much I will be paying for my meal before I order it because the whole price, including taxes, is right there on the menu, without me having to figure out whatever local taxes apply.

    • Re:

      Where do you live? Sounds great.

      • Australia. It's not perfect - the wildlife is out to get you and drop-bears are an ever present menace, but the weather is nice and the average age of our senators is 52, with our current prime minister being 60 and the leader of the opposition 52. They are both terrible of course, so that's pretty much the same.

        • Re:

          Heh heh heh. Got me!

• Tipping was European originally, and migrated to the US. But it was snuffed out in Europe as exploitative, while encouraged to flourish and grow in the US... for the same reason. Here's [time.com] an article on the history if you're interested.

• Re:

  Same here. It's beyond absurd that you're expected to tip and I would have no problem not tipping at all. And the amounts. 20%, 25%? And now it's just self checkout. Laughable.
  
  Where I'm from, it's not that customary to tip, but if you do, it's because you're properly happy with the service and you do maybe 10%. Or if the amount is 13 and you have a 5 and 10 (for those paying with cash, but who does these days with Google/Apple/Samsung/etc Pay?). Digital/card payments help fight this, as well. Oh what's th

  • Re:

    Er, dude, they are. They're (they being the new union) demanding a 100% wage increase and adding a tipping option onto credit card transactions.

    And people wonder why companies don't like unions.

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  Apparently the Americans originally hated tipping because it was a thing the aristocracy did to establish their dominance over their underlings. Then they decided to love it. Meanwhile, Europe went the other way when they decided paying workers decently was a pretty neat idea.

  We've got the "best" of both worlds here in Canada. The minimum wage is the minimum wage,* but servers still expect a tip and we're all so brainwashed by American culture we assume (or they'll tell you) that they're under paid.

  * Quebec

  • Re:

    Many states in the US do not have a lower minimum wage for tipped workers. [wikipedia.org]

    And even at the federal level, if tips don't bring wages up to the general minimum of $7.25 (which is a joke in and of itself), the employer has to make up the difference.

    • Re:

      Yes. I typically tip in the US because it's a workers' hell hole and staff that is conventionally tipped gets paid somewhere between nothing and lol.

      As I said, in Canada that is not the case. Minimum wage ranges from $13 to $16.77, yet everybody still wants their 18% tip.

  • Re:

    BC only got rid of the liquor servers separate lower minimum wage a couple of years ago.

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  It's illegal to pay below minimum wage in the US, too. But at the federal level, minimum wage for jobs that rely on tips is lower - but if tips don't bring the total wages up to the normal minimum wage, the employer must. In other words, with minimum wage at $2.13/hour for tipped employees, if tips don't add up to $7.25/hour, the employer has to make up the difference.

  It's illegal for the employer (or any level of management) to take the tips, but effectively, the first $5.12/hour if tips goes to the owner.

• Re:

  I agree I only tip in New Zealand when its exceptional service, not simply bringing me my food, but in the US when wages are adjusted so a tip is included I tip. Pay your employees a decent wage and it would not be needed, when I look a the price of an item I should know what it costs, not that plus random tax and tips. I think the no tip system is better but its not the employees fault.

  Also why should a waiter get paid more for bringing expensive food as apposed to cheap food? It makes no sense.

• • Re:

    You're gobbling down the racist propaganda, which will surprise no one.

    Tipping started as a classist thing - English nobles tipping peons as a way to demonstrate their superiority. They were all entirely Caucasian.

    I'd suggest you learn how to do a Google search before posting stupid shit, but we both know that's beyond you.

    • Re:

      True, but there is also a genuine racial aspect to tipping in the US. Blacks tend to get inferior service in restaurants etc, due to the well-founded expectation that blacks do not tip. I first heard this on Louis CK, but other sources agree. Even PBS. (Makes no difference who the server is.)

      https://www.pbs.org/video/blac... [pbs.org]
      https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]

      • Re:

        p.s. This might also explain why Australian tourists get poor service in the US. We also tip poorly, if at all.

    • • Re:

        American's came from the English, along with customs. The fact that they don't have nobility has nothing to do with it.

        • Re:

          And facts have nothing to do with 'tard-boy's masturbatory delusions.

        • Re:

          But not the grammar.

      • Re:

        Tipping predates the United State, retard. The custom came to the colonies from England, as described.

        As Google would tell you, if you weren't so fucking stupid and gullible.

    • • Re:

        I wouldn't trust Politico to be correct on what day of the week it is on any even remotely political subject.

        If you've done a simple Google search, you've seen the real history and ignored it. Making further discussion with you pointless, since all you're capable of accepting is the propaganda.

• Re:

  Yeah I don't worry about offending robots.

• Re:

  It's not just tips. Now cashiers at grocery and other stores ask for donations to a charity. I think they are hoping that some people will be too embarrassed to say no to giving money to the charity, e.g., "Think of the starving kids! You're not against starving kids, are you?"

• Exactly

  You cannot guilt me into tipping.
  I tip waiters who are making a "tipping" wage.

  I do not tip:
  Uber drivers
  barbers
  fast food counter servers

  • Re:

    I don't tip at drive throughs unless it's Sonic and they skate to my car

    • Re:

      Double your fun - tip using dollar coins and "accidentally" drop them.

  • Re:

    I do tip people who deserve a tip due to what they do for me. What exactly has anyone done for me at a self-checkout? Am I supposed to tip myself?

    That's like sending myself a bouquet of flowers for a really good wank.

    • Re:

      "That's like sending myself a bouquet of flowers for a really good wank." - LOL thanks for the laugh. I needed that.

    • Re:

      I handle it very simply: I never under any circumstances use a self-checkout because I know they're a ripoff. Part of the price of every item you buy is intended to pay the wages of your cashier, and maybe a bagger. When you use self-checkout, there's no cashier or bagger involved, but you still pay the same amount as if there were. That's why you see so many: self-checkout is more profitable for the store. I don't use them, and I suggest that you stop using them as well.

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    Uber drivers are paid well below even the below-minimum-wage waiters. They get about $3.50/hour without tips.

    Barbers are providing a highly personal custom service to you.

    What's wrong with you?

    • Re:

      They should include that in the price of cutting my hair, seriously tell me the price up front and I will decide if I want to pay or not.

      as for uber drivers, I was told I was not allowed to tip (I am not from the US), I felt that what I paid was way too low for the time they spent.

    • Re:

      I've always tipped car washers. Physically tiring especially in summer and the handoff of keys makes it a pleasant experience where the tip is appreciated.

• Re:

  Most servers I know (in my family and in life), would turn down a server job paying $15 an hour in favor of the 2.25 with tips.

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    Only in places where the tipping culture has gone fully stupid like the USA. No one outside the USA would choose a $2.25 + tips over a $15/hr. What makes the USA different is the minimum "guaranteed" tip even with no effort on behalf of the server.

    • Re:

      No one outside the USA would reasonably expect the tips to add up to more than $12.75/hour.

      Depending on where you work, you'd be fired because to get tips that low you'd have to stab someone in the throat or light the place on fire.

  • Re:

    I've had discussions with servers who were violently opposed to doing away with tips even if they were guaranteed a steady wage equal - or greater - to what they've been making with tips.

    Stupidity comes in many flavors.

    • Re:

      The fact is that you claiming they will make more has little bearing on if they will make more. People dont trust you but they do trust making $100K a year while you dwell on how little their $5/hour base pay is like a drone. They understand that you dont understand. They know that you dont know.
      
      They know what they make and your claims to the contrary are irrelevant noise for them. They just dont care when you are wrong and you were demonstrably wrong and got heated when people didnt just believe you.

      • Re:

        Listen carefully, dumbass, and I'll use small words:

        It's guaranteed as an inherent part of the business model.

        If you made $60,000 last year total, you'd be paid a wage of $30/hour, which is about $62,000 a year. About the same. That's the wage, and it's illegal to not pay you that once it's set.

        The reason so many servers resist is that they believe they're superior, and will make more with tips if only everyone else would get out of their way.

        Or maybe they can't do simple arithmetic, or actually believe tha

  • • Re:

      Some servers, for example sexy girls at high-end bars, make more than you do. (I know some who make hundreds of dollars an hour.)

      Most waiters, however, clear minimum wage with the tips.

• Re:

  I regularly get good service in most places in Spain. I live here. Sometimes service staff have a bad day & are grumpy but that's OK; they're human. I have bad days too. And if someone says something unreasonable or shitty, guess what? I'd rather they were sincere than put on fake smiles & be all "chirpy-cheerful." Much more civilised.

• Re:

  Because you're being paid a living wage that is most likely 8-20 times higher than the person walking that beer over to you. They are not even paid close to minimum wage, and rely on tips.

  By contrast, your water in Spain was getting paid a decent amount.

• Re:

  The place where I find it uncomfortable is where you walk up to a counter, place your order, go stand somewhere, and then go pick it up from the counter. Then you take it home, or seat yourself at one of the tables. There is no waiter.

  But when you pick up your food at the counter, you pay for it then. And they shove a touchpad at you that asks how much you want to tip. The buttons are all high percentages. There's an awkward "No Tip" button your not supposed to push. The person is standing there, waiting fo

• Inflation is horrible all over the world. I used to pay 0% tips and even here that has nearly doubled, it's crazy.

• Re:

  Not only that, but these days it's calculated on top of the taxes and service fees (not on the actual food subtotal).

  Where I live (near Washington, D.C.) the taxes and shit are as high as 20%. So with a 20% tip, I pay 40% on top of the advertised price.

  A small hamburger is $18.
  You wind up paying over $25.
  This is for counter service (like at McDonalds), no waiter involved.

  I tip very well for being waited on.
  I don't like tipping for no service,
  just someone handing me a burger
  at a fast food counter.

• Re:

  Depends how and where you were raised, I guess. Here in the USA, I remember learning about tipping when I was first taken out to a real restaurant. You know, with a waitress. (Not fancy, but not McDonalds). I was 10 years old. I was taught: Always leave at least $1/person at the table. That's a 1960 dollar, which today would be $10.25). If the service was excellent, you tip more.

  By the time I was a teenager working in a real (not fancy) restaurant, a 15% tip (on the subtotal before taxes) for decent service

• Re:

  I was just thinking that if I'm doing my own checkout and bagging the store should be paying ME. I'm certainly not getting any savings from their automation passed along to me.

• Re:

  Outrage monkeys gonna outrage. It's what they do. It's all they do. Most will actually actively resist actually solving a problem, because then they have to find something new to outrage over.

• Re:

  I learned a new term from a flight attendant on Youtube the other day. Referring to people walking up and down the cabin aisle trying to pretend they're not farting.

  "Crop dusting"