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210 - What We Wish We Knew
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Episode 210
210 - What We Wish We Knew
We're old. That means you should totally take advantage of all of our mistakes! Bob and Josh share a few things they sure wish they knew at earlier points in their career. Hopefully, one of these topics touches something you are struggling with and helps you get through a bit easier than we did!
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Transcript
And I carried it last time,
Bob: 00:00:05you know, you know what I don't know about carrying it,
Bob: 00:00:12but I felt like the last episode you probably had the most space.
Bob: 00:00:17Yeah.
Bob: 00:00:18Yeah.
Bob: 00:00:18And it felt good to be did it, but then you just burst it right
Bob: 00:00:22then just that it felt good.
Bob: 00:00:24It felt right until you just opened your mouth and just blew it
Bob: 00:01:06Bob: 00:01:07
Josh, do you know what I wish I knew what
Josh: 00:01:12I wish I knew how to pick a podcast partner 12 years ago.
Josh: 00:01:16Bob: 00:01:16
yeah.
Bob: 00:01:18Is that, is this the, is this the reflection episode,
Bob: 00:01:23Josh, where we reflect back?
Bob: 00:01:25Yeah, I guess, so maybe, maybe sort of get a little bit misty-eyed
Bob: 00:01:31about mistakes that we've made.
Bob: 00:01:33What do you think?
Bob: 00:01:35Yeah.
Bob: 00:01:36All right.
Bob: 00:01:36So tell me, tell me more about that.
Josh: 00:01:40Oh, you more about that?
Josh: 00:01:41Well, number one, we should have done a couple of trial
Josh: 00:01:44episodes and understood the word.
Josh: 00:01:46Count the word.
Josh: 00:01:48That was there.
Josh: 00:01:49Um, I probably would have practiced more in learning how to interject myself
Josh: 00:01:53into a soliloquy that was happening.
Josh: 00:01:56Yeah, big word.
Josh: 00:01:58And I think if I knew those, if I was able to tackle that, I think we wouldn't
Josh: 00:02:02have landed where we are, where it's a surprise when people hear Josh's name,
Josh: 00:02:06they're like, oh, it's a metal cast with
Bob: 00:02:08Bob: 00:02:09
And Josh.
Bob: 00:02:11Exactly.
Bob: 00:02:11And Josh, you know, I'm just kidding.
Bob: 00:02:14I just want, I've always reflected on though.
Bob: 00:02:16What gets the value of the discourse?
Bob: 00:02:18I think it's sort of the value of the IVs without a doubt.
Bob: 00:02:22You know what I
Josh: 00:02:22mean?
Josh: 00:02:23I know, but we have this running joke we have
Bob: 00:02:25to make, it's just jabbing at you.
Bob: 00:02:27Don't accept.
Bob: 00:02:29That was a jab.
Bob: 00:02:30Fine, fine.
Bob: 00:02:32Get feisty.
Bob: 00:02:33Alright, great.
Bob: 00:02:34You're laying back in your, in your banana shirt.
Bob: 00:02:37Josh: 00:02:37
was way louder.
Josh: 00:02:40Sorry, everybody.
Josh: 00:02:41I just slapped the arm of my chair was wait,
Bob: 00:02:45sorry.
Bob: 00:02:48You know, I don't regret.
Bob: 00:02:50No, I don't either.
Bob: 00:02:51I, I don't re what do I get?
Bob: 00:02:53Here's things that I wanted.
Bob: 00:02:56Let's bounce the ball back and forth.
Bob: 00:02:58So what do you have so many casters?
Bob: 00:03:01This, the theme of this episode is I wish we knew.
Bob: 00:03:04I wish I, I wish I knew this back then, whatever this is.
Bob: 00:03:09Josh: 00:03:10
go ahead.
Josh: 00:03:10When I first started hiring, I was a computer science only person.
Josh: 00:03:16I had zero.
Josh: 00:03:18Creativity or outside of the box thinking and who would be a good
Josh: 00:03:22developer if your resume didn't have computer science on it discard.
Josh: 00:03:29And over the years, some of the more higher performing successful just teams I
Josh: 00:03:37liked or made up of a majority of people.
Josh: 00:03:41That either didn't go to school or had a degree in something wildly
Josh: 00:03:44different than computer science.
Josh: 00:03:46So over the years I've learned that through just like stepping
Josh: 00:03:51in things and moving roles.
Josh: 00:03:53And now there's a team of people that I didn't hire and
Josh: 00:03:56I didn't look at their resumes.
Josh: 00:03:57I just like, wow, you're really good.
Josh: 00:03:59And then it comes up later like, oh, holy crap.
Josh: 00:04:01So you've wow.
Josh: 00:04:02That's amazing.
Josh: 00:04:03So there were so many people that I.
Josh: 00:04:07Could have added to the products we built to improving my career throughout the
Josh: 00:04:15way that I just shut out like a dumb,
Bob: 00:04:17well in diversity.
Bob: 00:04:19Right?
Bob: 00:04:20And I'm not, there's, there's academic diversity, but there's
Bob: 00:04:23all kinds of aspects to diversity.
Bob: 00:04:26And I was doing the same.
Bob: 00:04:28I mean, it wasn't intentional.
Bob: 00:04:30It was sort of naive or it was, you know, sometimes you, you just, that's all, you
Bob: 00:04:34know, but, I used to be like, not just university, but specific universities.
Bob: 00:04:40I remember when I moved down here, we identified a shortlist for our recruiters.
Bob: 00:04:45Like Clemson was an engineering university, Georgia tech, Virginia tech.
Bob: 00:04:49So we were, we, it wasn't just.
Bob: 00:04:54It was computer science from these universities.
Bob: 00:04:57And I did some of that up north too when I was in Connecticut.
Bob: 00:05:00when did I change?
Bob: 00:05:02Probably at Bellin.
Bob: 00:05:02How after a few years down here now in my defense, we were doing hard and bad.
Bob: 00:05:10So embedded systems development.
Bob: 00:05:12So, so having an engineering background probably harder to pick up, it's hard.
Bob: 00:05:17You don't pick that up, you know, in a bootcamp at a community college
Bob: 00:05:21or something, but still I just left.
Bob: 00:05:24I left all kinds of great people.
Bob: 00:05:27Oh on the, just, I, I let the, I pass them by and, and I got it.
Bob: 00:05:31It's not even just that it's the results that I got.
Bob: 00:05:34We were very predictable in our results in those teams.
Bob: 00:05:38Right.
Bob: 00:05:39I mean, they weren't bad teams, but just not a lot of variation,
Bob: 00:05:43not, not a lot of ideation, not a lot of creativity outside of the.
Bob: 00:05:48In those teams.
Bob: 00:05:49So yeah, I reflect that as well.
Bob: 00:05:53I'm trying to think of, I wish I'd known how hard agile is to get.
Bob: 00:05:58Right, right.
Bob: 00:06:01I don't think it had changed anything.
Bob: 00:06:03Well, no, I don't, I don't know what it would have changed something, but
Bob: 00:06:06I just wish I had known early on.
Bob: 00:06:08I think in the early days of my agile career, I looked at it as like a
Bob: 00:06:12method and it was the history, like a unified process and things like
Bob: 00:06:16that, like wrap the rational unified process and other SDLC came along
Bob: 00:06:21and they were processed definitions.
Bob: 00:06:23And I wish I would have known how culturally.
Bob: 00:06:26Key and how organizationally key agile success was like,
Bob: 00:06:30like right from the get-go.
Bob: 00:06:32I did not get it.
Bob: 00:06:33I probably wasted.
Bob: 00:06:36I'm not wasted, but I probably spent, you know, the first four or five,
Bob: 00:06:41maybe even up to eight years thinking agile was a process thing mostly.
Bob: 00:06:46Right.
Bob: 00:06:47Bob: 00:06:47
I disrupted some roles, for example, like project management roles or testers in,
Bob: 00:06:52in development teams and things like that.
Bob: 00:06:55But I didn't, I didn't get it.
Bob: 00:06:56I wish I would've gotten it sooner.
Bob: 00:06:58I think it was.
Bob: 00:07:00I think it would have increased the success of some of those early adoptions.
Bob: 00:07:04And I was a part of, yeah, I, I,
Josh: 00:07:08I've been down a similar path where I spun my wheels a lot
Josh: 00:07:14and I was very stubborn about, and it's like, this is going to work.
Josh: 00:07:19And I just tried to make it work by the process, not the culture.
Josh: 00:07:25And I learned through mistakes.
Josh: 00:07:26Yeah.
Josh: 00:07:28I needed to get better at addressing the culture from the top down and
Josh: 00:07:31get all of the leaders on board and helping lead it before it was actually
Josh: 00:07:37going to work because it was just like, oh yeah, Josh and the devs are
Josh: 00:07:40doing this agile thing, but the rest of the company, it was very waterfall.
Josh: 00:07:44And so that put a really low ceiling on the success that we can have.
Josh: 00:07:48And I, you know, and I.
Josh: 00:07:51Terra data is perfect example, like you saw how that was going to end.
Josh: 00:07:56You had more experience, you were like, yes, this is not going to work I'm out.
Josh: 00:08:01And I hung around for a couple of years, at least just banging my head
Josh: 00:08:05against that wall, trying to turn into something that it just wasn't going to be.
Bob: 00:08:10That's the other thing I wish I wish I would have been more courageous.
Bob: 00:08:15I mean, again, I had kids growing up, so, so there was real world.
Bob: 00:08:20Reasons, but like with the great resignation now
Bob: 00:08:24people are boldly going out.
Bob: 00:08:27You hear about more courage now, right.
Bob: 00:08:29I'm not doing what I want to do.
Bob: 00:08:31I'm going to pivot.
Bob: 00:08:32Right.
Bob: 00:08:32You talk about that sometimes like startups and things like that.
Bob: 00:08:35I've got limited time.
Bob: 00:08:37I wish I would have had more courage early on to take, to take more risks.
Bob: 00:08:43Maybe it's confidence or courage or something to do that.
Bob: 00:08:47Josh: 00:08:47
agree completely.
Josh: 00:08:48And I think part of that is the culture that we were brought up.
Josh: 00:08:53And like, I, I realized the drivers that led to me choosing my career path
Josh: 00:09:03and it was very tied to the area that I grew up in the norms around that.
Josh: 00:09:09And so as I've learned that, and as I moved into Raleigh, like I started
Josh: 00:09:14working with the city and you know, here in Raleigh, success is usually
Josh: 00:09:21defined as you go to one of the big three schools, you get a job and, you know,
Josh: 00:09:26you know, you bounce around a little bit and that's fine, but like you do that.
Josh: 00:09:32There's not enough support for failure.
Josh: 00:09:35We're encouraging people to try different things.
Josh: 00:09:38You know, that's not the norm here, whereas in some other parts
Josh: 00:09:41of the country that's encouraged.
Josh: 00:09:43Yeah.
Josh: 00:09:43So that's a thing that I've always tried to work on here is encouraging that more
Josh: 00:09:47often because there were societal norms that I allowed to hold me back, but I
Josh: 00:09:56wish I would have like shed those sooner.
Bob: 00:10:00You mentioned something earlier, you didn't say it this
Bob: 00:10:02way, but like sudden costs thinking.
Bob: 00:10:04So I've been watching this, rich Chariton has a video.
Bob: 00:10:07He's the Menlo innovations CEO.
Bob: 00:10:10And he talks about one of the major factors in slowing you down or
Bob: 00:10:14fear or whatever is you get stuck on what, you know, like trying new
Bob: 00:10:18things, because you're stuck with what you, what you've sunk into it.
Bob: 00:10:22And I I'm very some costs.
Bob: 00:10:26influenced, right.
Bob: 00:10:27I've always been, it goes back to my background.
Bob: 00:10:30I'm very conservative, you know, farm conservative, you know, you're
Bob: 00:10:34going to, you're going to beat it.
Bob: 00:10:36You're going to beat it into submission rather than right.
Bob: 00:10:39Rather than just move and not get stuck in things.
Bob: 00:10:43So I wish I would have let go.
Bob: 00:10:45There's not a specific sunk cost example.
Bob: 00:10:48I could mind for them, but it's being.
Bob: 00:10:52Being less sensitive to that.
Bob: 00:10:55Right.
Bob: 00:10:55Being, yeah, it's a factor, but being very lightweight with some costs,
Bob: 00:10:59I think that would have changed the trajectory of my trajectory of some of
Bob: 00:11:04the, the companies that I was a part of, if not getting stuck in that thing.
Bob: 00:11:09Yeah.
Bob: 00:11:09Okay.
Bob: 00:11:10So I won't hit the
Josh: 00:11:10pause button for all the listeners out there.
Josh: 00:11:14If you haven't been thinking about the things we've been
Josh: 00:11:17talking about and evaluating.
Josh: 00:11:20How you're doing with those rewind and start over, make sure you're,
Josh: 00:11:25you're listening to these are, these are stories of mistakes that we made,
Josh: 00:11:29but we are going to do with them.
Josh: 00:11:30Can you look at, oh, I do that same thing.
Josh: 00:11:32I like Bob.
Josh: 00:11:33I do the exact same thing.
Josh: 00:11:34And then how do you start to drive change?
Josh: 00:11:37So don't passively listen, actively, listen here.
Josh: 00:11:39The next thing for me is I wish I had.
Josh: 00:11:46More training with firing people than I did with hiring people.
Josh: 00:11:51The amount of effort that I put in personally and other people put into
Josh: 00:11:57helping me hire the right people, just absolutely dwarfed the training.
Josh: 00:12:03I basically got no training for how to let someone go.
Josh: 00:12:07And the first few I fumbled.
Josh: 00:12:10A complete doofus and I look back and I feel terrible because I
Josh: 00:12:15just mishandled it with someone's life and all of those things.
Josh: 00:12:19And I did it poorly.
Josh: 00:12:20So I've really invested in myself in trying to get better at that because
Josh: 00:12:26you're not going to get everything right.
Josh: 00:12:27You're not going to get every hire.
Josh: 00:12:29Perfect.
Bob: 00:12:31I agree.
Bob: 00:12:32I mean, I remember going, what was the name?
Bob: 00:12:35Wavetec Wando and Goldman was a telecommunications instrument
Bob: 00:12:39company here in the triangle.
Bob: 00:12:41There was a big tea.
Bob: 00:12:42There's a lot of peripheral telecom companies and they were
Bob: 00:12:46one of them like test instruments.
Bob: 00:12:47And I worked there for awhile and the HR, I w I went to HR to try to put someone
Bob: 00:12:53on a performance improvement plan.
Bob: 00:12:55And, and the director of HR, didn't have a thing like that.
Bob: 00:13:00So literally like the HR team didn't know how to fire somebody.
Bob: 00:13:04And, and so I had to help.
Bob: 00:13:06So I had some experience, but it's like indicative.
Bob: 00:13:09It's not just you it's, it's like, that's not, I would call a skill or a competency
Bob: 00:13:17that that's lacking in most organizations.
Bob: 00:13:19Bob: 00:13:21
Right.
Bob: 00:13:22Like doing it with humanity, doing it with equity, doing it with patience, doing
Bob: 00:13:27it with clear clarity of communication.
Bob: 00:13:30Right.
Bob: 00:13:30You know, just doggedly doing it, putting in the effort to do that.
Bob: 00:13:33Just like you would in recruiting.
Bob: 00:13:35Right.
Bob: 00:13:35That's another missing a missing thing.
Bob: 00:13:38What for me.
Bob: 00:13:39do you have I'm thinking, do you have another one?
Bob: 00:13:41Could you throw another one out?
Josh: 00:13:42I've clearly made a lot more mistakes than Bob.
Josh: 00:13:45It's not mistakes.
Bob: 00:13:47I wish I would
Josh: 00:13:47know in the yard time.
Josh: 00:13:49One of the things where I have stubbed my toe the most in my career has
Josh: 00:13:55been, I would interview for a roles.
Josh: 00:13:58I would get accepted.
Josh: 00:14:00About the leaders, they were selling exactly what I was buying
Josh: 00:14:04and I was fired up and no one knows this better than my wife.
Josh: 00:14:07Right.
Josh: 00:14:07Cause she's been along all those rides and the number of times that I was
Josh: 00:14:14disappointed as time progressed and that person wasn't really what I thought they
Josh: 00:14:19were coming out of the hiring process.
Josh: 00:14:22And that led me to leave.
Josh: 00:14:23So I've worked really hard and the past five or six years.
Josh: 00:14:27To learn how to interview the leaders at accompany, to understand who they
Josh: 00:14:31really are and be more confident about the choices that I make.
Josh: 00:14:34Okay.
Bob: 00:14:35I hear that I do a lot of coaching now.
Bob: 00:14:38You know that I do the leadership workshops and things, but I
Bob: 00:14:41try to help the community.
Bob: 00:14:43It's probably not probably it's the number one thing I hear is people making
Bob: 00:14:49mistakes and they're making repeated mistakes going into the wrong company.
Bob: 00:14:53And it's, it's a pervasive problem because it's really hard.
Bob: 00:14:56It's actually, I think, quite challenging for anyone to interview for the culture,
Bob: 00:15:01to cut through the bullshit, to cut through the facade and get to the real
Bob: 00:15:04essence of a company like the glass store of a company or something like that.
Bob: 00:15:08Then I think the one regret I have, and I still have it.
Bob: 00:15:12I'm still working on it.
Bob: 00:15:13I'm working on a blog post about.
Bob: 00:15:15Is my humility and I think I'm too, and don't don't please don't
Bob: 00:15:20harass me about it, but I I'm too.
Bob: 00:15:24I'm too humble.
Bob: 00:15:25And part of it is, imposter syndrome and it's been, it's been a problem for me from
Bob: 00:15:31my youth, like growing up, I've never.
Bob: 00:15:34I've never been ultra confident or ultra cocky or anything like that.
Bob: 00:15:40And I wish I would have, I wish I would've seen my value even to this day.
Bob: 00:15:46You know, when I, you know, you've talked to me about you
Bob: 00:15:48don't, you don't charge enough.
Bob: 00:15:50A guy was talking to me the other day, you know, I have this pattern
Bob: 00:15:53sometimes of excusing my experience right on webinars and things like that.
Bob: 00:16:00And, and he was like, he shook me and is like, you know, you don't
Bob: 00:16:03undermine what you have to offer.
Bob: 00:16:05Right.
Bob: 00:16:06It devalues your experience.
Bob: 00:16:07You have a lot of experience.
Bob: 00:16:10And so I wish I would have stopped that shit earlier.
Bob: 00:16:12I really, and I'm still.
Bob: 00:16:16Going into that.
Bob: 00:16:17But I, I think that's that undermine the trajectory of my career.
Bob: 00:16:23I think you broke professionally as an employee, but also, outside as
Bob: 00:16:31a consultant and things like that.
Bob: 00:16:33And I'm not saying I should be cocky, but I think a lot of people are too humble.
Bob: 00:16:39They're too.
Bob: 00:16:40They're letting their imposter syndrome.
Bob: 00:16:41affect them.
Bob: 00:16:42Yeah.
Bob: 00:16:43And, and seeing yourself, giving yourself a fair break, really sort of seeing
Bob: 00:16:48yourself the way you are looking in the mirror effectively in a balanced way.
Bob: 00:16:53You're
Josh: 00:16:53Bob: 00:16:54
effin, Galen.
Bob: 00:16:55And I don't feel like that.
Bob: 00:16:56I know.
Bob: 00:16:57Right.
Bob: 00:16:57Josh: 00:16:58
honestly, everyone else does.
Bob: 00:17:00And everyone else does, and I don't feel that way.
Bob: 00:17:03And, and, actually being vulnerable now, that's, I've, that's hurting me.
Bob: 00:17:07It's hurting me in many ways.
Bob: 00:17:10And, and I just, and I'll never, I'll never be cocky.
Bob: 00:17:14Right.
Bob: 00:17:15Who's a cocky guy in, Craig Lara.
Bob: 00:17:17The less guy is relatively cocky.
Bob: 00:17:20Yeah.
Bob: 00:17:21So I will never be a Craig alarm and or someone like that,
Bob: 00:17:24but I, you need to step it up.
Bob: 00:17:26You, you really need to like, look yourself in the mirror and
Bob: 00:17:30accept yourself for like your strengths and things like that.
Bob: 00:17:33The other weird thing about it, Josh is I'm good at I'm good at, I think
Bob: 00:17:38I'm good at, giving, giving you.
Bob: 00:17:41Yeah.
Bob: 00:17:42See, I, I just can't, but I, I do that with you, right?
Bob: 00:17:46Like I give you a mirror and I'll, if I'm talking to you, I will coach up your
Bob: 00:17:50strengths, but I won't do it to myself.
Bob: 00:17:53So I'll get, I'll show a mirror to other people, but I won't.
Bob: 00:17:56So that's something I wish I not only knew it was self aware of it and I think I've
Bob: 00:18:02been self-aware, but it's it's is really working hard to, to rebalance myself.
Josh: 00:18:08You know, given last episode, I, as a friend would
Josh: 00:18:13say, give therapy a try, right?
Josh: 00:18:16Like if you think it was shaped by upbringing, like most things like
Josh: 00:18:20this are, it might be helpful for you to work through that with an expert.
Josh: 00:18:25And that might uncover the thing that then helps you.
Josh: 00:18:28Push forward, you know?
Josh: 00:18:29Cause I, you know, I can tell you I've I've been investing a lot there.
Josh: 00:18:32Yeah.
Josh: 00:18:33And it helps.
Josh: 00:18:35Bob: 00:18:35
that's actually coaching has helped me in that I've I've because I'm in
Bob: 00:18:39these coaching programs, I've connected to one-on-one coaches and the coaching
Bob: 00:18:44has helped actually the coaching has, but therapy would equally probably.
Bob: 00:18:50It's the same thing.
Bob: 00:18:51It's that reflection.
Bob: 00:18:52Right.
Bob: 00:18:53And the other thing is doing something about it, right?
Bob: 00:18:56Most people, you know, it's not just reflecting on it.
Bob: 00:18:58Surfacing at board is your action plan.
Bob: 00:19:00Like what are the small little things you can do to start
Bob: 00:19:02shifting your frame for that?
Bob: 00:19:04What else do I wish?
Bob: 00:19:05I wish I would've known that management.
Bob: 00:19:08I wish I had known that I was good at management.
Bob: 00:19:11So it's going to be like a twofer, but I wish I would've known how hard it was.
Bob: 00:19:15Like how challenged it's, it's almost, I wish I would've known
Bob: 00:19:18the dichotomy of leadership, which is it's freaking hard to walk.
Bob: 00:19:23We talk in the medic cast all about walking your talk.
Bob: 00:19:27I don't think people under.
Bob: 00:19:29Walking, your talk is fricking challenging right under, under, and
Bob: 00:19:34you're not perfect, but you're, you're doing it under all circumstances.
Bob: 00:19:37You walk your talk.
Bob: 00:19:38I walk my talk.
Bob: 00:19:40That's fricking hard.
Bob: 00:19:42It's just challenging.
Bob: 00:19:43It requires courage.
Bob: 00:19:45It's it's whatever.
Bob: 00:19:46But then it's worthwhile.
Bob: 00:19:47I wish I had known how worthwhile it was, but how tough it was.
Bob: 00:19:50I don't know.
Bob: 00:19:51I might've changed the trajectory of my leadership career if I didn't know.
Bob: 00:19:55Yeah.
Bob: 00:19:56It's, it's almost like the humility thing.
Bob: 00:19:59I don't know what I would have become, but, I may have gone into consulting
Bob: 00:20:03earlier or something and skipped I, so, you know, we talk, you think.
Bob: 00:20:09You know, like a Teradata, I cut out early, but there, there was a
Bob: 00:20:14company where I was like, shrugging my forehead against the wall for 10 years.
Bob: 00:20:18Do you know what I'm saying?
Bob: 00:20:19Right.
Bob: 00:20:20I could have cut that coulda got had until like three or four and saved
Bob: 00:20:25myself a lot of like, you know, brain damage or something along the way.
Bob: 00:20:29What do you got?
Bob: 00:20:30Similar
Josh: 00:20:30along the way and like almost the opposite of.
Josh: 00:20:36Of where you're coming from in that I was overly confident that
Josh: 00:20:41management was going to be easy and I jumped way too early into it.
Josh: 00:20:45I jumped away too early into it for a couple of reasons.
Josh: 00:20:49One, I was just not ready to give up coding.
Josh: 00:20:52I still loved it.
Josh: 00:20:54And I didn't realize that to do leadership.
Josh: 00:20:56Well, you had to stop the other thing and I didn't want to, so that already was.
Josh: 00:21:02Not only was I not like experienced at it yet.
Josh: 00:21:05I didn't want to do that.
Josh: 00:21:07Part of the job was I wanted to keep writing code.
Josh: 00:21:09So there were a ton of mistakes I made early in the game where I,
Josh: 00:21:15you know, I just fumbled things.
Josh: 00:21:17Bob: 00:21:17
think when I, if I remember you talking about your story, you had a good
Bob: 00:21:21mentor, but I think you went early, right?
Bob: 00:21:24You went into leadership management early.
Bob: 00:21:26Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bob: 00:21:28And like my third job.
Bob: 00:21:29Yeah.
Bob: 00:21:30Yeah, there's no magic time, but it's, it's, it's not for the, so
Bob: 00:21:35it's not for the faint of heart.
Bob: 00:21:36It's one of the reasons why I'm getting pissed off lately
Bob: 00:21:39about people slamming managers.
Bob: 00:21:42Right.
Bob: 00:21:42And I know there's tons and tons of bad leaders, bad managers in the
Bob: 00:21:46planet earth, but dammit, you got to tip your hat to these people who are
Bob: 00:21:50on the field of battle trying, right.
Bob: 00:21:52Trying to make a difference.
Bob: 00:21:54And folks, folks marginalized them in slam in the agile community.
Bob: 00:21:57A lot of people just, just always are anti manager, right.
Bob: 00:22:02It's just get rid of them and fire them.
Bob: 00:22:03And I, they, it annoys me.
Bob: 00:22:06I wish I would have known earlier how important.
Bob: 00:22:13Like your, your languages your words matter how you show up matters.
Bob: 00:22:20It's sort of like I thought, like in management it was, you know,
Bob: 00:22:26the technical stuff or something.
Bob: 00:22:27Like, I, I grew up as a developer or detecting to leading teams that way, but
Bob: 00:22:34in soft skills, does it a disservice, but.
Bob: 00:22:38I wish I had known, you know, to be careful in how you articulate
Bob: 00:22:42things to be careful You know, in how people interpret it and D diverse
Bob: 00:22:47communities and things like that.
Bob: 00:22:49Our language is becoming now, nowadays it's incredibly important to be caught,
Bob: 00:22:54not overly cautious, but careful, thoughtful intentional with your language.
Bob: 00:22:59And I, I wasn't, I mean, it's not that I was bad, but I, I
Bob: 00:23:04wasn't, I wasn't considerate of the crowd the way I should have.
Bob: 00:23:08I became much more considerate of it, but there were probably probably 15
Bob: 00:23:14years of leadership where I, I was, I was not really, I was hurting people.
Bob: 00:23:19I was insulting people and not intending to do.
Bob: 00:23:22But, but language, language matters.
Bob: 00:23:25How you show up matters your body language, you know, like
Bob: 00:23:29the nuance of leadership, the nuance of how you communicate.
Bob: 00:23:33I think, I don't think I got that so much.
Bob: 00:23:35She was like, here's a PowerPoint slide.
Bob: 00:23:37Here's a goals.
Bob: 00:23:38And you know, who's, here's an OKR, blah, blah, blah.
Bob: 00:23:41Get it done.
Bob: 00:23:42Go right.
Bob: 00:23:43Like Newt Rockne kind of thing or something.
Bob: 00:23:46That was my vision.
Bob: 00:23:47That probably went back to the army.
Bob: 00:23:51Oh yeah.
Bob: 00:23:51Yeah.
Bob: 00:23:52There's, I'm sure there was some military sort of influence there of
Bob: 00:23:55how leaders like showed up there.
Bob: 00:23:58but what are you guys?
Josh: 00:24:00Yeah, I, I, I think it was spoiled in that aspect with
Josh: 00:24:04the coaches I had in college.
Josh: 00:24:06That was a key to who they were and who we were, and it was really
Josh: 00:24:11kind of drilled into us, but.
Josh: 00:24:14Along the way where I've struggled, where I did struggle.
Josh: 00:24:18I don't do any more.
Josh: 00:24:19Cause I've, I've learned my lesson was as we acquired or worked
Josh: 00:24:26with, teams that were global.
Josh: 00:24:30I, I didn't understand early enough that their culture is their culture
Josh: 00:24:36and you cannot ask them to operate.
Josh: 00:24:40Like we do on our culture.
Josh: 00:24:42And so there were teams I had in Malaysia and China that I was trying
Josh: 00:24:48to force them into working in the way we worked here in the U S and
Josh: 00:24:52that's not, that's not fair to them.
Josh: 00:24:54And then teams in Eastern Europe, same thing.
Josh: 00:24:58Yeah.
Josh: 00:24:59I tried to ask to work them the way that we do, and that's just not respectful.
Josh: 00:25:03It's not realistic.
Josh: 00:25:05So I, I fumbled a few things and had to learn and just.
Josh: 00:25:09I accept and respect the cultures that were in place and understand that I
Josh: 00:25:15needed to do a better job of tweaking, how we work with them and how we
Josh: 00:25:20support them and what we ask of them, because that really was the problem.
Josh: 00:25:24And everybody I worked with was doing their darndest, but it was asking them to
Josh: 00:25:30jump over a mountain and it just wasn't.
Bob: 00:25:33I think as you were talking, I was thinking the
Bob: 00:25:36same thing in a different way.
Bob: 00:25:37The same thing for me was, was change.
Bob: 00:25:40I wish I would've known earlier that you can't change people.
Bob: 00:25:46Right.
Bob: 00:25:46You just can't right.
Bob: 00:25:48And I thought I could write and I, and I worked hard to change it.
Bob: 00:25:52I'm trying to think of when did I, when did that get through my hard head?
Bob: 00:25:56Within the last five years, So I have, you know, 40 years of working
Bob: 00:26:01or over 40 years twenty-five years of leadership 20 years of agile and
Bob: 00:26:07only in the last five years probably have I, I mean, I S I might've said.
Bob: 00:26:13But, but in my heart, like as a coach, I would go in and like, I'm Bob Galen.
Bob: 00:26:17Right.
Bob: 00:26:18I can change you.
Bob: 00:26:19Right.
Bob: 00:26:19so in my head, I was like, I can change it.
Bob: 00:26:22Right.
Bob: 00:26:22I just need to push the right buttons and figure out the
Bob: 00:26:24right magic words or whatever.
Bob: 00:26:26And I can, I can, I can make you do scrum or I can make you, right.
Bob: 00:26:31If you're in Eastern Europe, I can make you love collaboration and kumbaya
Bob: 00:26:36meetings with other developers and stuff.
Bob: 00:26:38And, and it, it doesn't, it doesn't work.
Bob: 00:26:40Yeah.
Bob: 00:26:41Not directly, not in a direct way.
Bob: 00:26:44And that's boy, I'll tell you the amount of like fire and brimstone and chaos.
Bob: 00:26:50I created in my wake right along the way.
Bob: 00:26:54And I mean, I did get, and I did affect people change.
Bob: 00:26:59The problem is it wasn't sticky change?
Bob: 00:27:01They, it was, they were changing.
Bob: 00:27:03They were mirroring what was expected.
Bob: 00:27:05I wasn't changing people.
Bob: 00:27:07And you know, I think a lot of people still have that.
Bob: 00:27:09I just did a calc class last week and it's one of those things that
Bob: 00:27:13I talked to people about and from a leadership point of view, and
Bob: 00:27:17almost everyone to a person is.
Bob: 00:27:20Is asking questions, like, how do I, how do I get people to adopt scrum?
Bob: 00:27:24Or how do I get people to do this?
Bob: 00:27:26Or how do I get people to they're looking for this magical change elixir
Bob: 00:27:30and I burst her bubble and I'm like, you can't, and you can see this like
Bob: 00:27:33overarching sadness and all the, you know, and all the faces in zoom.
Bob: 00:27:37Yeah.
Bob: 00:27:37It's like, but what do I do?
Bob: 00:27:39I'm like you don't.
Bob: 00:27:41Yeah.
Bob: 00:27:42Right.
Bob: 00:27:43And so I think, I think that's an epiphany or a transition.
Bob: 00:27:47But a lot of people should have not enough.
Bob: 00:27:49People have
Josh: 00:27:50Josh: 00:27:51
This can sound very flippant.
Josh: 00:27:54So know that I don't intend it this way, but I was talking with a group, you
Josh: 00:28:00know, a couple of weeks ago and they were working through a team that was struggling
Josh: 00:28:06and trying to figure out what to do.
Josh: 00:28:10And just as we talk through.
Josh: 00:28:13I kind of blurted out.
Josh: 00:28:15So what we really need to do is figure out who we need to fire, right?
Josh: 00:28:18Because like, there's, there's something that's not working.
Josh: 00:28:22Right.
Josh: 00:28:23And which, which piece of the puzzle is it.
Josh: 00:28:26And let's identify that and that's clearly the issue.
Josh: 00:28:30And then we need to replace that piece cause something's wrong with it.
Josh: 00:28:33And so, you know, throwing around words like that, that's.
Josh: 00:28:40Kind of heavyweight and to just say like, who do we need to fire?
Josh: 00:28:42You know, like that sounds pretty jerky, but in reality, you have a
Josh: 00:28:46bunch of unchangeable pieces and maybe the final piece for your puzzle
Josh: 00:28:51belongs with a different puzzle.
Josh: 00:28:53It doesn't mean it's a bad puzzle piece.
Josh: 00:28:55It's just the wrong puzzle piece.
Josh: 00:28:57And so then you have to switch it for both
Bob: 00:29:00parties to be happy.
Bob: 00:29:01Absolutely.
Bob: 00:29:02Well, the realization that you can't change people.
Bob: 00:29:05Right.
Bob: 00:29:05They can change themselves.
Bob: 00:29:07You can inspire them to change themselves, but I can't make someone do something.
Bob: 00:29:12and I'm still working.
Bob: 00:29:13I still have to remind myself of that.
Bob: 00:29:15I've gotten so much better about that, but I wish I, I wish I would have
Bob: 00:29:20maybe just, just, even for myself, the other thing with me is, you know,
Bob: 00:29:25you get frustrated with yourself.
Bob: 00:29:27It's like, I should have changed that either the other side or.
Bob: 00:29:32Realizing you're not, you can't change.
Bob: 00:29:34People is giving you the freedom to not being accountable for
Bob: 00:29:37everything around you, right?
Bob: 00:29:39Oh, I, I didn't change the culture the way it is.
Bob: 00:29:42Well, no one could have changed.
Bob: 00:29:44So culture, so it's a little freeing a little bit, right?
Bob: 00:29:49It's a, it's a little, it's a little sort of treating yourself with some care.
Bob: 00:29:53You have something else.
Josh: 00:29:56Welcome to our diversity and inclusion minute where Josh is embarrassed
Josh: 00:29:59because Bob is lapping him here.
Josh: 00:30:02So I'm just going to zip my lip and allow
Bob: 00:30:04Bob to have.
Bob: 00:30:06So not really lapping, but a couple things, just did a calc class last week.
Bob: 00:30:11And I was really, I do, like I studied the people I asked them to do pre-work
Bob: 00:30:16and of 13 attendees and a captain at 12.
Bob: 00:30:19So I keep it small.
Bob: 00:30:20so it was 13 attendees and eight of them were women and I was.
Bob: 00:30:25Yeah, that's exactly what I'm looking for.
Bob: 00:30:27Um, and that's not totally intentional.
Bob: 00:30:30I was lucky, but it's, I'm working at it and we also market absolutely
Bob: 00:30:35why I provide discounts and stuff.
Bob: 00:30:37Yeah.
Bob: 00:30:37But, you know, sometimes I look up and it's a very sort of diverse from a racial
Bob: 00:30:42point of view and I get very pleased.
Bob: 00:30:44This one was, I was really any of that.
Bob: 00:30:47You said it was a freaking awesome class.
Bob: 00:30:50So this, you can see the diversity of leaders and, and these
Bob: 00:30:53are what eight women leaders.
Bob: 00:30:56So that was cool.
Bob: 00:30:57what else?
Bob: 00:30:58I picked up another mentee.
Bob: 00:30:59So agile Alliance, I've been really pushing on the agile
Bob: 00:31:02Alliance for people to join it.
Bob: 00:31:05And, have you joined her?
Bob: 00:31:06I have, I don't have a mentor.
Bob: 00:31:08So, and then they have a program called Agilent color
Bob: 00:31:12where you can go and volunteer.
Bob: 00:31:13I have one minute.
Bob: 00:31:15And he's, he's wonderful.
Bob: 00:31:16He's in Peru.
Bob: 00:31:17So just, I just like working with him, I like working with serious people.
Bob: 00:31:22Right.
Bob: 00:31:22Who you could just tell in the dialogue there, they're just yearning.
Bob: 00:31:26I love to help people like that.
Bob: 00:31:28Right.
Bob: 00:31:29And then I have, I have another one signed up, that we're going to work together.
Bob: 00:31:32So I've added a mentee.
Bob: 00:31:34And then the third thing is one of the, attendees of the calc class
Bob: 00:31:38is active in the Seattle women in.
Bob: 00:31:41Group and she invited and I was talking about my daughter teaching the class.
Bob: 00:31:44So she avoided, she invited Rhiannon and I to do like a father daughter,
Bob: 00:31:50ask us anything about leadership.
Bob: 00:31:51And I think that's kinda cool, but different perspectives.
Bob: 00:31:54and we're going to do that.
Bob: 00:31:55I think in January or something like that.
Bob: 00:31:58So I, I keep trying to keep trying to do things.
Bob: 00:32:02Just keep the ball, moving down.
Bob: 00:32:04The what's the, give me the metaphor, Josh.
Bob: 00:32:07I mean the court, the field, the field, the field, keep moving, keep
Bob: 00:32:11matriculating the ball, the field.
Bob: 00:32:14Okay.
Bob: 00:32:14Josh: 00:32:16
remember right now in your diversity inclusion, thoughts, be more like.
Josh: 00:32:22Josh was playing a little catch
Bob: 00:32:23up, move, move the ball down the field.
Josh: 00:32:26If you listen to last episode, you might understand
Josh: 00:32:30why I've slowed down a bit, but that's going to get back on track.
Bob: 00:32:34It's it's all good.
Bob: 00:32:34But you know what, though?
Bob: 00:32:36We have this diversity actually.
Bob: 00:32:38Another person, the other woman I'm coaching.
Bob: 00:32:41She, and she was apologizing.
Bob: 00:32:42I don't listen to the Medicare as much, but I listened to one and you guys
Bob: 00:32:46talk about diversity and it inspired me from a woman perspective cause I have
Bob: 00:32:50imposter syndrome and it was really thankfully you guys talked about that.
Bob: 00:32:54And so.
Bob: 00:32:55Yeah, that's wonderful.
Bob: 00:32:56The fact that we're doing this right.
Bob: 00:32:59I agree.
Bob: 00:32:59So you get credit for that too, right?
Bob: 00:33:02Where we don't know, like we're throwing a rock, everyone, medic casters, just
Bob: 00:33:08throw a rock in the pond and see what the ripples do back to the episode with that.
Bob: 00:33:19It's what I do.
Josh: 00:33:32You know, the, the funny thing that keeps bouncing around in my head
Josh: 00:33:36is I feel like I should have learned.
Josh: 00:33:38In high school with all my girlfriends that I tried to change.
Josh: 00:33:43And like, it just didn't work.
Josh: 00:33:44Like how did I walk out of high school with the relationships that I had
Josh: 00:33:47thinking that I could change anybody
Bob: 00:33:50that's true.
Bob: 00:33:51Even marriages and stuff.
Bob: 00:33:52Right?
Bob: 00:33:53Yeah.
Bob: 00:33:53People get.
Bob: 00:33:55I mean, my w you know, if we have tongue-in-cheek Diane still, I'm
Bob: 00:34:00like, honey, you ain't going to jail.
Bob: 00:34:02Yeah.
Bob: 00:34:03I'm pretty, I'm pretty solid where I'm at right now.
Bob: 00:34:06but we, we try, I was gonna S I was gonna say something about, like, I wish
Bob: 00:34:14I would've known how the frameworks, how bad the frameworks can be.
Bob: 00:34:23I mean, I've discovered that over time, but it would have
Bob: 00:34:26changed how I did things.
Bob: 00:34:29If I, if I would've went scrum, when I first got exposed it, I
Bob: 00:34:33mean, I've been doing scrum for a long time, you know, 20 plus years.
Bob: 00:34:37So I've influenced people.
Bob: 00:34:38It's not just I've been doing it.
Bob: 00:34:40I've done it in companies.
Bob: 00:34:41I've done it with my teams.
Bob: 00:34:42I've done it as a co you know, I've done it to lots of organizations.
Bob: 00:34:46I wish I would've known how unimportant.
Bob: 00:34:50Some aspects of it are.
Bob: 00:34:52And, and, and, you know, don't get caught up on it.
Bob: 00:34:55And it's the same thing with Kanban.
Bob: 00:34:58And it's the same thing with all of the scaling frameworks, just every
Bob: 00:35:02framework, dev ops, all of the fricking frameworks and, and mindset things.
Bob: 00:35:08I wish I would've known how little they mattered, how much
Bob: 00:35:13mindset mattered, still matters.
Bob: 00:35:16Right.
Bob: 00:35:17Principal.
Bob: 00:35:18Mindset getting to the essence of something.
Bob: 00:35:21And, and I w I wish that could have changed how I was operating externally.
Bob: 00:35:26I don't know if it would have changed how my writing is or something.
Bob: 00:35:29I mean, the people were still there's brick walls out there, and I still
Bob: 00:35:34throw stuff in brick walls all the time.
Bob: 00:35:35Right.
Bob: 00:35:36So I don't know if it would have changed the world or change.
Bob: 00:35:39My writing or anything like that.
Bob: 00:35:41But certainly for me personally, I think it would've, it would've
Bob: 00:35:46gotten me on, on essence.
Bob: 00:35:47You know what I hope I'm making sense.
Bob: 00:35:49Like, like it's walk, getting to the essence of something is important.
Bob: 00:35:54And I, you know, I F and I fought, I fought for things too much fought, but
Bob: 00:35:59argued things that just don't matter.
Bob: 00:36:02Right?
Bob: 00:36:02Bob: 00:36:02
It's just, don't, I've done the same.
Bob: 00:36:04I've done.
Bob: 00:36:04Does it matter?
Bob: 00:36:06I'm trying to think of what else.
Bob: 00:36:08I want to squeeze.
Bob: 00:36:09I want to squeeze as much juice for.
Bob: 00:36:11Okay.
Bob: 00:36:11Well, I will
Josh: 00:36:12reiterate while you work
Bob: 00:36:14on that juice.
Bob: 00:36:15Bob: 00:36:17
Jeez.
Bob: 00:36:18What's wrong with us?
Bob: 00:36:19Medic casters, weird to such a team.
Bob: 00:36:21Aren't we, we just play off of each other.
Bob: 00:36:24So, so
Josh: 00:36:24elegantly, yeah.
Josh: 00:36:26Elegantly that's us elegantly for a member.
Josh: 00:36:29Don't just passively.
Josh: 00:36:30Listen to what we're talking about.
Josh: 00:36:33Find the one thing in here that you.
Josh: 00:36:35I didn't know, you wish you knew and evaluate where you're at and maybe, maybe
Josh: 00:36:43there's still time, you know, and you can, you can save it and you can make
Josh: 00:36:47a difference sooner rather than later.
Josh: 00:36:49And that will set you off in whatever direction you want to go.
Josh: 00:36:52So please take the time
Bob: 00:36:54to do that.
Bob: 00:36:55My final wish I think is I wish I would've known Josh Anderson earlier.
Bob: 00:37:05I agree.
Josh: 00:37:05I should've moved here sooner.
Bob: 00:37:07Yeah.
Bob: 00:37:07Or, or in general, it's it's, you know, I was joking a little bit.
Bob: 00:37:12That was pretty apparent.
Bob: 00:37:13Was it?
Bob: 00:37:13Yeah, I know it's shocking.
Bob: 00:37:15but in general, the community, I wish, I wish I would have, like, there's, there's
Bob: 00:37:19wonderful people in this community.
Bob: 00:37:22And so if I had a wish and we've talked about this, ask for help more frequently,
Bob: 00:37:25or I say, you don't know, reach out to us, reach out to other people.
Bob: 00:37:30I wish I would have reached out sooner because I would have accelerated
Bob: 00:37:35in some areas I think quicker.
Bob: 00:37:37Because generally, I mean, someone might say no every once in a while, but in
Bob: 00:37:40general, kind of, I can't I mean, I had a guy in Atlanta send me, out of the blue.
Bob: 00:37:44I know.
Bob: 00:37:45He sent me something today.
Bob: 00:37:47And, he had like a question he's running a workshop or something.
Bob: 00:37:50I sent him back a reply and I think it like helped him a lot.
Bob: 00:37:53That's that's I do that because it's important to me to give back.
Bob: 00:37:57Right.
Bob: 00:37:58He'll do that.
Bob: 00:37:59You'll you do that?
Bob: 00:38:01There was a girl.
Bob: 00:38:01I, there was, there was a lady, a girl lady in, in Eastern Europe.
Bob: 00:38:07That I comment on, I forget her name, but think, I think what's Lina.
Bob: 00:38:13Yeah.
Bob: 00:38:14I just love her posts.
Bob: 00:38:15Yeah.
Bob: 00:38:16And I try to, I try to give her some encouragement in my
Bob: 00:38:19comments to her post sometimes.
Bob: 00:38:20And I, I think you have talked to her or something, she
Bob: 00:38:24reached out to you for coaching.
Bob: 00:38:26And I just, I just think doing more of that earlier.
Bob: 00:38:30would have made me better.
Bob: 00:38:33It would've made the universe better.
Bob: 00:38:35Bob: 00:38:35
Yeah.
Bob: 00:38:36I've I, I mean, I've started that in the early days of the Medicus.
Bob: 00:38:40We didn't do a lot.
Bob: 00:38:41We didn't do a lot of that.
Bob: 00:38:43I mean, w what we asked for was feedback, give you, give
Bob: 00:38:45us topics and things like that.
Bob: 00:38:47When, when have we done the pivot, like we've done a community
Bob: 00:38:51diversity give back pivot.
Bob: 00:38:53It's only been in the last five or less years or something like that.
Bob: 00:38:57Probably less than three years or something.
Bob: 00:38:59Yeah.
Bob: 00:39:00I don't know what's happened.
Bob: 00:39:01We've we've changed.
Bob: 00:39:02We've gotten older.
Bob: 00:39:03We've seen exactly it.
Bob: 00:39:05We've reflected what we're saying and we've gotten feedback.
Bob: 00:39:08The other thing is, I think we've gotten some encouragement
Bob: 00:39:10by people like there's folks.
Bob: 00:39:12What is that darn tool that people discord, discord.
Bob: 00:39:17Bob: 00:39:17
That people have.
Bob: 00:39:18Well, you were doing the discourse, things, getting feedback and
Bob: 00:39:21stuff from people for awhile.
Bob: 00:39:22There's some,
Josh: 00:39:23there's some good dialogues in there.
Josh: 00:39:25The exciting thing that's happening in there right now.
Josh: 00:39:28Linked below is that there are like role specific channels
Josh: 00:39:33that people are talking about.
Josh: 00:39:34It's like a scrum master discussion and product owner discussion.
Bob: 00:39:39I have to get on there sometimes I have just been, so I just not, it's
Bob: 00:39:44just another technology kicks my butt.
Bob: 00:39:46It just does.
Bob: 00:39:48It just absolutely does.
Bob: 00:39:50And the name, you know what, by probably
Josh: 00:39:53I've heard that if I sent it to you before.
Bob: 00:39:56Yeah.
Bob: 00:39:57If it was called, like Charlie brown, I'd probably, you know, or cotton candy.
Bob: 00:40:02Oh, if it was cotton candy, I'd be all over it.
Bob: 00:40:04I would pay, I w you know, all right.
Bob: 00:40:08I did.
Bob: 00:40:08I did.
Bob: 00:40:09We, I think we squeezed enough juice and the casters it's reflection go
Bob: 00:40:14back and reflect, listen to what we've said, reflect on your own journeys
Bob: 00:40:19and start making some earlier pivots.
Bob: 00:40:22Like I don't, don't get into that sunk cost crap.
Bob: 00:40:26Oh, I can't make a change.
Bob: 00:40:27Right.
Bob: 00:40:28Or I'll call or I'll put it off till next year or next speaking as me,
Bob: 00:40:33that turns into the next decade.
Bob: 00:40:35Right.
Bob: 00:40:35And then you're, you know, it's a little, it's not late, but it's,
Bob: 00:40:39it's much later than the harder.
Bob: 00:40:41It makes it much harder.
Bob: 00:40:42Right.
Bob: 00:40:43So, really reflect and I wish I would have known.
Bob: 00:40:47The other thing is in your team.
Bob: 00:40:50And your teams, you know, run your retro.
Bob: 00:40:52How about I wish I would've known what retrospective or I
Bob: 00:40:56wish I would have discovered.
Bob: 00:40:58And what would we give a ton?
Bob: 00:40:59So it's, that's, that's start having a tsunami.
Bob: 00:41:04Whoa of reflection that is, out there.
Bob: 00:41:07Sounds powerful.
Bob: 00:41:08All right.
Bob: 00:41:09So from beautiful downtown, we're in few, quite a few quake.
Bob: 00:41:13Hyphen Rena I'm Bob Galen, Bob F and Galen,
Josh: 00:41:17Bob effin gala.
Josh: 00:41:18And I'm
Bob: 00:41:18Josh Anderson and Josh F and Anderson.
Bob: 00:41:21Yeah, baby shake.
Josh: 00:41:23Oh, we gotta reach.
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