Hundreds of US Car Dealerships Abandon Buicks. Are EVs to Blame? - Slashdot

Posted by EditorDavid

• ›

  by Baron_Yam ( 643147 ) on Monday January 08, 2024 @07:41AM (#64140291)

  Yes, it is a large investment in training and equipment to be able to service EVs, and service is where dealers make a lot of their money.

  Yes, EVs are generally a lot more expensive than ICE (not sure about this at the luxury level, because that's never been my interest).

  Now put that in a market where the brand is falling out of favour - I don't know about you, but when I think 'Buick' I think of some overweight old guy who wants the biggest boat possible to drive down the road - and you have a confluence of factors that could drive dealers to dump the brand. Especially smaller dealers who don't have the cash reserves to fund a retooling that might not pay off for a decade or more.

  • Re:

    The falling-out-of-favour bit was my reaction as well. When I think of what car I'd like to get if I had a pick of more or less anything out there, the entire Buick brand wouldn't even register.

    • Re:

      I didn't even know they still made Buicks, this article could have said the mercury cougar was being discontinued and I'd be in the same head space.

      • Re:

        They’re small crossover vehicles and garbage if you talk to a mechanic.

        • Re:

          You seem right. My elderly mother has a 20-year old Buick (car) that is comfortable, has a smooth ride and is full of features she likes.
          
          When its engine later blew, she bought a newer Buick (car). It's smaller, of course, its interior is plasticy/cheap, it has a stiffer ride and its dash buttons are basically a thoughtless grid of square protrusions. (I'm sure the fuel efficiency laws have some blame.) She didn't love it as much, so she replaced the engine in the old car...
          
          If a Buick is going

      • • Why are dealerships still a thing?

          Disintermediation for the win!

          Or an example of long-ago enshittification?

  • I don't think EVs are to blame per se. I think they are just the final straw. The brand was already on the decline (even the post speaks to the numbers). The country is fairly split on the benefits of EVs [personally, I like them and own a PHEV and a full EV]. Because there is a group that is firmly against them, it's easy to place the blame there -- and will get clicks to the article. Additionally, their core demographic (old people) tend to be generally right-leaning politically which is the side most against EVs.

    Put all of that together, and Buick is likely to be a brand that disappears soon.

    • Re:

      They were subsidized in part by sales in China, but the Chinese market is turning away from them too.

      The brand is effectively dead.

      • Re:

        I suspect that in the US the playbook will be for many dealerships to ignore EVs for as long as they can.

        But once they're no longer able to do so, they're going to hit up the automaker for the money needed to convert. And the automaker won't really have a choice in the matter if they want to stay in business.

        That said, Ford and GM both have over $100B in debt and their sales numbers are dwindling overseas, which means that they're either going to declare bankruptcy or run to the government for another hando

        • Re: Deadly combo

          The automakers all want to sell direct.

          If enough dealers go out of business then they will be able to because the dealer lobby will be too weak to protect the protectionist laws that mandate their existence.

          Dealers are a cancer to be excised from the market. They raise prices to no customer benefit and they are often incompetent at service. Some of my worst service interactions have been at dealers. The whole "where will you get your cat serviced" argument is always used in these discussions and also always

  • Re:

    There is a £10,000 difference between a Volkswagen Up! and the Volkswagen e-Up!, both one of the cheapest cars in their respective classes, there is zero difference to the interior. A Model 3 makes an equivalent BMW 2 series look positively up market in comparison, both are around the same price, performance (the top end 2 series will actually perform better as you cant get the high speed 3 for the same money, but I'll happily cede this point). EV's are nowhere near luxury until you start looking at l

  • Re:

    Here's the thing. I'm sure every dealer is going to need to invest in servicing EVs. What I'm wondering is how much it costs incrementally to service Buicks, given that you already service the other GM brands. I would hope GM would make that a very small cost (that's been the trend for decades, consolidating the components, tools, and processes used by multiple brands).

    If there were standalone Buick dealers, yeah, this could be the straw which puts them out of business. But I really doubt there are any deal

  • Re:

    Recent (10 years ago?) ICE Buicks were quite nice, and iirc had decent reliability ratings from CR. However, I had always assumed they were like the old Buicks, until I got one at random as a rental. That's why it's a bad idea to try to change brand identification.

  • • by Tx ( 96709 ) on Monday January 08, 2024 @08:33AM (#64140397) Journal

      The latest CR survey however says Electric Vehicles Are Less Reliable Than Conventional Cars [consumerreports.org], but it doesn't mention the overall annual cost of maintenance, at least not in that summary. Could the figures have changed in the last couple of years as more ICE manufacturers start switching to building EVs? Could it be that EVs tend to have problems that tend to be cheaper to fix? In any case, the theory that EVs are more reliable than ICE cars doesn't seem to be on entirely solid ground in practice.

      • Re:

        I wonder if it's an issue of in-warranty vs out-of-warranty work. EVs don't have as many parts that will wear and need continual replacement, but since they're still relatively new for most brands, you'll often run into assembly issues that would be corrected as part of the warranty (from TFA: "Tesla powertrains are now pretty solid for the most part, but Tesla owners report a lot of build quality issues"). My general experience tracks with that - a couple trips back to the dealership early on, but rock sol

      • If you watch the video, it appears that a lot of the EV "repair" problems come down to Tesla and Rivian's fit and and finish issue. Misaligned panels, rattles, and so on. Tesla's drivetrain tech is pretty good, but after 10 years they're still learning how to build cars.

      • Re:

        Could it be that the absolute most reliable brands (Toyota, Honda, Lexus, Acura, Subaru) have minimal or no EV offerings? When the overwhelming majority of EVs sold are from a new manufacturer (Tesla) and one that had a 100% battery recall (Chevy) that skews the results.

• But I still prefer something with reclining leather seats that goes really fast and gets really shitty gas mileage!

  Get me a SUX 6000. I'd buy that for a dollar!

  • 8.2 miles to the gallon, an American tradition!

    The funny thing about satire is it's never extreme enough. People are actually driving around trucks for grocery shopping that get 12 mpg.

    • Re:

      stay at home mom, one kid, a 7 seat SUV. It makes total sense. I personally think there need to be classes of drivers licenses in the US based on vehicle size. So many people can't drive a full size pickup or SUV.

      • Re:

        There's a reason for this: car seats. If you have more than one kid and they each want to bring a friend somewhere, or you want to car pool for drop offs/pickups, you need 3+ car seats installed and nobody can ride in the front passenger seat. This is a role that used to be filled by station wagons, but they mostly got edged out of the market due to fuel efficiency regulations. There are now only a handful of wagons left in the US market and of those, half of them are from luxury brands like Porsche and

        • by skam240 ( 789197 ) on Monday January 08, 2024 @10:11AM (#64140765)

          I grew up playing sports and so spent a lot of time doing carpools as a kid to get to practice and no one owned an SUV or a station wagon. It was all regular cars and it worked fine.

          Maybe go spend some time observing the vehicles on the roads in other first world countries. No one drives the insanely large vehicles we do aside from maybe the Canadians a bit. Hardly necessary.

          • • Re:

              WTF are you talking about? 4 kids in a car. It works fine, there are seatbelts for everyone.

              It's a car pool not a bussing service.

              • Re:

                In Illinois, kids need to be in some sort of boaster or car seat until age 8. In California, it's 10 years old. Car seats tend to be very large. It's hard to squeeze two car seats in the back seat of a sedan. This encourages parents to buy behemoth SUVs. It's the law!

                • Re:

                  California is 8, not 10 https://www.chp.ca.gov/program... [ca.gov])

                  I also dont know any parents who put their eight year olds in car seats and plenty of my friends have kids.

                  • Re:

                    My daughter has a Honda Civic. My granddaughter is four. The front passenger seat is useless because it is pushed forward as far as it can go to allow room for my granddaughter's feet in her massive car seat. I seriously doubt that a second child car seat would fit behind the driver's seat. I *KNOW* it would not if I were driving since I have to push the driver's seat back enough to be able to get my knees in the car.

                  • Re:

                    In MA the kid must be 12 and weigh 80+ lbs.

        • Re:

          I call BS - I had Mazda 5 that seats 6 and is a sub-minivan. It can be done in reasonable size. Look at the rest of the world,

        • Re:

          Except the correct vehicle for this scenario is a minivan.
          
          I live in snowy Canada in a family with two of us parents, two young-teenage kids and a big golden retriever.
          
          Our primary car is a small crossover FWD EV, our secondary car is a FWD gas minivan.
          
          Both with good snow tires in the winter time.
          
          Unless you live up a mountain with a unplowed country road to your house, no one needs an SUV.

  • Re:

    From what I was told from a "car person", when GM was deciding to stop production of either Oldsmobile or Buick, the chose Oldsmobile. Buicks at the time were huge sellers in China, where Olds in other parts of the world was about equal to Buicks. So, China was the deciding factor on who goes.

    Now I wonder if this move to EV is a response to China's national push to EV. GM may not care what happens to Buick in the US.

    • Re:

      Now that you mention it, I recall that when I was studying in Taiwan a lot of government and business cars were Buicks. Early to late 90s.

    • Re:

      Not so simple as China's "push" to EVs. Auto sales (especially luxury sales) in China were dominated by foreign brands with highly sophisticated ICEs. The advent of the EV gave Chinese companies a way to leapfrog their competition, plus there's now a lot of preference in China for Chinese brands. Add it all up and foreign auto sales are plummeting.

      The only way out is for many companies like Volvo and VM to partner and build in China. Much like how Honda and Toyota have plants in the US and as such they can

• Are senior citizens and ghetto rats. Some of the worst drivers on the road as well. There is no way either of those two groups are buying electric vehicles.

  • Re:

    Not quite. Buicks have a passable market in China [goodcarbadcar.net], and you can clearly see them losing that from the link I sent over. China is a) the world's largest car market and b) forging ahead on EV sales>. This is likely the reason for the all-electric Buick range, not the US.
    
    I'm in the UK, we don't get Buicks here anyway (I don't think). But the market they're targeting with the Buick is China, not the US.

    • Re:

      Bah, got EV link wrong. Here's the link I meant [statista.com].

      • Re:

        I missed your post and posted something similar. But I heard the same from a "car person".

  • Re:

    And we should not want them to buy EVs.

    If there are any two groups of drivers that should not be handed the keys to something even heavier with even faster acceleration (think about correcting a wrong pedal action) its people with age-slowed reflexes, and folks on drugs, legal, illegal, prescribed, street or otherwise.

• It does indeed cost money to equip and train for servicing EVs.

  However, the true cause is perhaps that EVs require a LOT less servicing than ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) cars.
  The dealerships won't be able to charge for oil changes every 5000 miles anymore.

  • Re:

    My understanding that dealership service departments make most of their money on warranty repairs, not maintenance.

    • Re:

      Of course, which is why they push warranties so hard!

      Those warranties aren't "free" even if they are "included."

      In general, you can tell how bad a deal is, by how hard the seller pushes it. They *all* push extended warranties really hard.

      • Re:

        Has not been my experience. We bought a new Honda in Sept. they mentioned the extended warranty. They didn't seem to care if we bought it or not. Wife said "no" and that was the end of it.

        • Re:

          You apparently found the one salesperson who didn't really care about the additional commission.

  • Re:

    Nissan has a solution for that: excessive replacement of brake fluid.

• Buick? (Score:5, Interesting)

  by DarkOx ( 621550 ) on Monday January 08, 2024 @08:05AM (#64140323) Journal

  WTF is the marketing department smoking, and can I get some.

  You got stable of brands,with lots youth and every man oriented things like Chevy and GM, you could always resurrect something like Pontiac or Saturn. You could bring a brand from overseas over like Holden that American's see as sporty, and make that the EV push in the US. Instead you go looking at two established brands are associated with an older market. Buick and Cadillac of those the latter has a enthusiast segment with younger demographics and an appeal to wealthier people that like play things are generally less risk averse.

  After this analysis you choose Buick - the brand where the people who do like it are the least likely to want something different. They want box with a v8, lots of climate dials, and plum colored crushed velvet all the places you can't stick plastic faux wood grain. They people who don't own one of these things, don't want the association at all, and this where you decide to double down on an EV line up? WTF...

  • Re:

    You could always resurrect something like Pontiac
    
    This x10. Why does Buick even exist? Pontiac was GM's best brand.

    • Re:

      I don't see Pontiac target audience buying EVs. These guys are still into carbureted engines, where entire industry still exists of designing and selling carburetors [holley.com] in 2024. The only reason these guys would buy an EV is to shoot it up at the back 40.

      • Re:

        See I think you are wrong about that. Those guys (my self included) like carburetors, because we can work on them in our garage. A lot us are not exactly spooked by EFI either and are happy to play with things like megasquirt etc.

        Wanna know what keeps people using carbs though its vendor lock outs mostly. Pull the EFI unit on modern car and slap in a MS, and guess what the body module won't talk to you. There is no way to get like any part of the OEM dash to work, and so on. Of course the OEM EFI stuff, co

        • Re:

          I disagree with you. I swapped injectors, tuned ECU and even turbocharged NA engine, and with greater precision than you could ever dream of by fiddling with carb nozzles and intake manifolds. Yes, it required a laptop. Modern cars are tunable, customizable, and there is a healthy market for it. Sure, some car manufacturers are not friendly to tuning and took steps to make it difficult, but that is not the norm. There are plenty of vendors like COBB [cobbtuning.com] that support a healthy enthusiast aftermarket and I can bu

    • Re:

      Yeah, back when they got rid of Pontiac (Sporty!) and Olds (New technology with style!) they decided to keep Buick (Old people buy it!) apparently because of Chinese interest. Guess it has some prestige as a brand there culturally. Honestly I don't know how Cadillac fits in there. Which as an American who remembers GM's downsizing all their platforms in the 80s, kind of made me laugh a little about time and place of brand perception.
      
      Bring back Pontiac for North America and even those re-badged Buick

    • Re:

      Bring back the Pontiac Firebird. Play up the lithium battery aspect. Goes 0-60 in 3 seconds, might start a fire that can't be put out for 8 hours./s

  • Re:

    Maybe the analysis took into account that older buyers tend to have more money, and electric cars are still expensive to produce.

  • Re:

    Half of the Buick Line up is no longer made in USA, many will no longer view them as an American car. The anti-China sentiment is ramping just as several Buicks are now Chinese imports. Way to kill a brand GM.
    
    The dealers dropping Buick will eventually have to evolve or close down since GM in general is moving to EVs soon, Buick is just the first step.

  • Re:

    There must be a real dearth of sports cars in the US if you thought of Holden as something sporty.
    
    For the uninitiated, Holden sold large saloon (sedan) cars that were horribly unwieldly, the flagship models had downturned American V8s, a 6 litre LS that produced a whopping 270 KW. The Vette with the same era LS produced around 330 KW. Most Holdens were V6 Ecotec or Alloytec engines. Also one "ute" or Pickup in the American parlance which was so badly balanced that it became a popular decoration for young

    • Re:

      Except that's over now. Now it's mid-engined, and the performance model is electrified. It's basically a GM NSX. Except, you know, GM can't make a car as reliable as Honda can. By all accounts the new 'vettes are great to drive, but they aren't the same as the old ones at all.

      If you really want a classic corvette now is the time to buy one, their values will probably go up. GM isn't really known for reliability so the numbers of good ones will dwindle rapidly.

  • Re:

    Honestly, Saturn would probably be their best play for an all-electric sub-brand. Buick was a weird choice, yes.

  • Re:

    Cadillac ELR was a NICE car. Way too expensive, but very nice. I got to drive one as my company car for a couple of years and I would have bought one if they were $20k cheaper.

• The last interesting and impressive car Buick made was the GNX.

  That was in 1987.

  It was a sales flop, because adjusted for inflation, that was an $80k car. It had to compete with imported cars that could go around corners for a lot less money. Very few of us drag race, and those who do could go a lot faster for a lot less money with a used vehicle.

  Name an interesting Buick which went into production after 1987. I'll wait.

  Since only the Chinese care about this brand, they should sell it to China while it still has some value, and run.

  • Re:

    I liked their Alero sedan. It was a good looking sedan and came in a two door "sporty" model that seemed popular.

  • Re:

    Yeah, but that Buick 3800 (especially the SC version) was an absolute top-tier engine. Indestructible, good fuel economy. Just an all-around great engine.

  • • Re:

      Everyone who knows what a GNX is knows that it was a Regal. They also know that they had another generation of Regal after that, but that there were no interesting models of it.

      If you get near a point, make it.

      • • Re:

          Yes, no need to be that guy who can't read. I was specifically pointing out the last time they SOLD anything interesting. '87 was the last year of the GNX, and that's the year I wanted.

          P.S. You're the only guy who used the word "innovative"... what I said was "interesting and impressive". I know those are all big words that begin with the letter I... You kids need to learn to read before you can catch me slipping.

• There are multiple cases of Hyndai refusing to diagnose and service EV batteries resulting in "go away" 60K quotes for minor scratches on a battery shield [ioniqforum.com]. This is explained well by Rossmann [youtube.com] as unwillingness or inability to diagnose or repair. I suspect with Buick there is a similar story, but as this is low-volume GM sub-brand, dealerships can just distance themselves from a similar mess.

• 2023 sales of EVs in the US were up 50% from 2022. That's insane levels of market growth. Dealer lots full of unsold EVs are not a sign that nobody is buying them. What's happening is manufacturers are overproducing. This may sound crazy but hear me out on this: It's possible for sales to be rapidly increasing AND for inventory to be increasing, at the same time!

  As for Buick... from the article it sounds like the brand is just not popular anymore. Just about time to send it to the farm upstate to join Pontiac, Plymouth, Oldsmobile, Saturn, Mercury, and dozens of others. If anything, reinventing itself as an EV brand might be the last chance it's got... but this is GM so I'm not gonna hold my breath over that.
  =Smidge=

  • 2023 sales of EVs in the US were up 50% from 2022. That's insane levels of market growth. Dealer lots full of unsold EVs are not a sign that nobody is buying them. What's happening is manufacturers are overproducing. This may sound crazy but hear me out on this: It's possible for sales to be rapidly increasing AND for inventory to be increasing, at the same time!

    Well, doubling sales of 4 cars to 8 is statistically "impressive", but....

    Ok, an exaggeration, but the total EV sales vs ICE in the US...it is about that minuscule in ratio...

    I think currently, given the US's lack of infrastructure and charging stations throughout the nation....pretty much everyone that really really wants an EV, now has one.

    The rest of the general populace is either "meh" or apprehensive at this moment.

    Range anxiety is a big thing with them.

    And, not everyone has private off street parking to "charge at home overnight" as the mantra goes.

    Combine that with price of new...and lately the poor resale on used EVs and well, those are all contributing factors to EVs piling up on dealership lots in general.

    As for Buick... from the article it sounds like the brand is just not popular anymore.

    Yep, I agree on that one.

    • Re:

      https://robbreport.com/motors/... [robbreport.com]

      Articles with the whole of 2023 put it at about 1 million EVs sold in the US last year.

      • Articles with the whole of 2023 put it at about 1 million EVs sold in the US last year.

        But in the bigger picture in the US, that's still less than 7% of total vehicle sales.

        And at least towards the end of the year last year...sales were slowing and EVs were starting to pile up on dealership lots.

        And, US manufactures reporting they are losing money on each EV sold...so they are slowing or outright halting productions of EVs for awhile.

    • Re:

      I have a home with a garage, with solar and am able to install a home charger cuz my wife's Tesla also charges there.
      Thing is, that garage space is currently occupied by an ICE 2015 Mitsubishi SUV that is paid off, is still useful, is pretty trouble-free and shows no signs of breaking down. That SUV doesn't go very far, meaning that I spend about $25/week in gas, and have low car insurance (paid off). So, while I may be eyeing EVs, I'm not in a huge hurry to get one, and am waiting on advancements in batter

  • Re:

    /puts on tinfoil hat

    I am seeing a lot of phrases like "cooling EV sales" or "EV sales slump" and I can't help but wonder if maybe it has something to do with the utterly INSANE dealer markups framed as "market adjustments"? When I see people talking about slowing EV sales, no one ever seems to address that particular elephant in the room.

    Of course EV sales are slowing. Why would anyone buy a vehicle that's marked up an extra $5-15,000 for no reason? No, I think this is a coordinated effort on the part of de

• How about we get rid of dealerships and buy vehicles straight from the manufacturer?

  • Re:

    Several brands have tried this in Australia, all that happened is prices got higher, as no negotiation of price discounts is done by the manufacturers, resulting in huge sales losses. Then younhave no,local expertise in repairing their cars, either EV of ICE.

    • Re:

      Why would you need local expertise in repairing the vehicles? They are simpler. Also dealerships infamously underpay technicians so they usually have a ton of turnover. Outside of the German brands with comprehensive and competent training programs, this is the dominant paradigm. You are more likely to find a tech who knows something at an independent shop. Some of my worst service experiences have been at dealers.

      What we need is nationwide laws compelling manufacturers to distribute service documentation T

      • Re:

        Maybe US technicians are underpaid, but ours are well paid and in high demand, as there are shortages. The fact remains that prices are now 10-20% higher direct from manufacturers due to the inability to bargain on prices.

  • Re:

    9 months ago all a dealer did was take your order and send it to the manufacturer as nobody had inventory. That is still the case with brands like Kia. I'd be down for the end of dealership monopolies at the very least.

  • Re:

    How about we get rid of dealerships and buy vehicles straight from the manufacturer?

    That would prove to be tough.

    Most states have laws that protect dealerships and outright ban direct sales from manufacturers to consumers.

    You'd have to fight a lot of ingrained law to get what you wish here and so far, it has proved nigh impossible.

    Ask Tesla.

• 2022 - EV production problems leads to long lead times and delivery problems. Crysis!
  Early 2023 - Crysis resolved.
  Late 2023 - EVs are *PILIING UP* the world is going to end, no one wants an Electric car. Crysis!

  Oh except that a record number of EVs were sold in the USA in 2023.

• Outside of China for some reason, Buick's haven't sold in volume in over a decade. The mid luxury brands died back in late 2000s when Ford and Chrysler killed Mercury and Plymouth respectively, and while GM killed Olds as a sporty mid luxury brand, they should've also killed Buick as well.

  When you Ad campaign's primary slogan is "Is that a Buick?" you know the brand dead.

  • Re:

    Wonder how Nash and Studebaker are doing these days?

  • Re:

    Near the end, Pontiac and Oldsmobile were just higher trim levels of their Chevy counterparts. Or at least that is how it appeared. Buick isn't even that anymore as half are now Asian imports. Time to discontinue.
• Buick is still alive? Seriously? That was my gradpa's car 30 years ago!
  
  I think the real story here is why so many are ready to rewrite any unsurprising story as some EV success? ICE envy is a thing.
• All the discussion on the broader EV market and whatnot is just noise. The real story is simple - Buick as a brand no longer has critical mass in terms of automotive sales, so dealerships would rather walk away from the brand than make the sizeable infrastructure investments for the next generation of Buicks. The brand is dying.

• Buick has some of the worst ratios of dealerships to cars sold among the major brands. The reason is that most "Buick" dealerships are just tacked-on additions to Chevy/GMC dealerships. They may only sell a handful of cars a month. If you are only selling 5 Buicks a month, it makes zero sense to have to spend big money on upgrades to your display space and service bays. Better to just stick to your bread and butter Chevy/GMCs.

• I doubt Chevy was surprised. I'm sure they contacted dealerships before making a move. This is for the foreign market.

• Because nobody want's them

  They are also going to become EV's... just like everything else but Buick will disappear in the US before that happens

• ...and they hate EVs
  We need direct sales like Tesla

• That's what young people will ask in a few years.

• • Re:

    I disagree. We bought a Buick "crossover", the Encore.

    We didn't care that it was a "Buick". All that really mattered was price and features. It could have been a "China Special" for all it mattered.

    As it turns out, it was a huge piece of shit. Numerous issues. We got rid of late last year it when it needed $4K of engine repairs. Replaced it with. A Honda CRV.

    Will never buy another GM vehicle again. On that note, I'm advising wife to never buy anything other than a Toyota, Honda or Mazda. Fuck everything el

    • Re:

      Oh, as for the Regal Tour X. Long story short, long anticipated, couldn't wait to buy one. Finally released. Went to go buy the top end model. Cash in hand. All was well until I asked where the spare tire was. No spare tire. Not even an option for a spare tire. They put a fucking subwoofer where the spare tire should go.

      Fuck that. Walked away. Not buying it.

      How the fuck can you call your car TOUR X and not have a spare tire?

      Assholes.

      But given the experience with the Encore, I'd say we dodged a $45,000 (at t

  • • Re:

      Toyota Camry, Honda Civic and Hyundai Elantra seems to still do really well. Plus, through regular driving, it is evident that most cars on the road are still sedans.

      • Re:

        Most people are smart enough not buy American when there are Japanese options in a segment.

        That's why the Japanese have built ever bigger pickup trucks for us. Even pickup truck buyers are coming around to the fact that American automakers are incompetent.

        Sedans are a shrinking segment and now I see more crossovers than sedans on the road, even up here in Humboldt which is one of the most ass-backwards regions of California. Like people still fly the southern slavery flag up here and everything, and while t

        • Re:

          I think sedans might come back among EV owners simply due to aerodynamics playing such a huge role in highway range. Compare the range of the IONIQ 5 (crossover) vs the 6 (sedan) - the RWD trims with the same battery size get 303 vs 361 miles, respectively.

          • Re:

            That might be, but road trips are ideally under 800 miles long [utires.com] and the average holiday trip is under 300 miles [bts.gov]. Translation, only one medium-length charging stop is required for your average long drive, and only 2-3 of them are needed for most especially long drives. That's not nothing of course, but it won't put a stop to most people's travel plans. Instead, it will change them slightly, with stops planned to coincide with the need to charge.

            Obviously there are still parts of the country where this is prob

        • Re:

          I think all of these sedans are made in US. For example, Honda Civic for NA market are made by Honda factory in Indiana [wikipedia.org]. It is really rare to get a sedan from Japan, I think only some Lexus and some Subaru would be shipped over.
          
          I also don't think sedans are a shrinking segment, I do think that more prudent buyers, whom would buy a sedan, are holding off purchases due to crazy post-COVID car market conditions.

          • Re:

            They are made in the U.S., but the management that approves the designs and standards they are built to is Japanese. American workers are fine, it's the upper management that is a worthless leech class.

        • Re:

          I think we needs to discuss what exactly is a sedan. With traditional definitions, neither Corolla Hatchback [toyota.ca] nor Corolla Cross [toyota.ca] would be considered a sedan. Still, I do not consider them to be a different segment from Chrysler New Yorker or Ford Escort. They all are light passenger vehicles. I think demise of a sedan is more about changing design tastes rather than move away from a practical light passenger vehicle with some cargo capacity and enough road clearance to handle bad weather.

    • Re:

      The car makers created that market to elide CAFE rules for cars. SUVs are classed as light trucks so they have looser safety, mileage, and emissions standards.

    • • Re:

        You're right, that is completely unscientific, and it's good you realize that.

        Try looking at sales figures.

        Try also realizing that the age of the US fleet is now about 13 years on average, and that it takes some time for new sales to trickle down to what you see on the road in an environment like that.

        CUV sales numbers have gone up consistently since about '02, while sedan sales numbers have consistently fallen. Model after model has been removed from the US market without replacement. It is obvious that se

        • Re:

          In regard to your comment that nobody is buying sedans any more... it's true. To an extent.

          But that's largely because American automakers STOPPED MAKING THEM. And it wasn't do to lack of demand, but because American automakers continued to push buyers towards ever larger SUVs and trucks.... on which they make a lot more money.

          Why sell someone a passenger car for $30,000 when you can convince the same person that they "need" a $100,000 truck?

          On which they make $30,000 in PROFIT.

        • Re:

          Gotta wonder how many of those CUV sales are just to replace CUVs that have been totaled after running over leaves or bumping a pole in the parking lot....