Jim Fielding, Ex-Head of Disney Stores, on the Struggles of Making It as a Queer...

Jim Fielding, Ex-Head of Disney Stores, on the Struggles of Making It as a Queer Executive

What does it feel like to live inauthentically at work? For his first professional job in the 1980s, in the fashion industry, Jim Fielding led what he calls a “double life.” With close friends and confidants, he was open about his relationship with another man. But at work, when discussing his partner he’d switch his pronouns and change stories to conform to expectations at the time.

The inauthenticity created emotional, physical, and mental problems. “I was having migraines,” Fielding says today. “I was having stomach problems. I was way too young to be feeling that amount of stress.”

Eventually, he moved to a company where he felt comfortable openly being himself, and from there he’s had a long, illustrious career as an entertainment industry executive, including stints as Global Head for Consumer Products and Retail Development at Dreamworks Animation and president of Disney Stores Worldwide.

For this episode of our video series “The New World of Work”, HBR editor in chief Adi Ignatius sat down with Fielding, whose book All Pride, No Ego: A Queer Executive’s Journey to Living and Leading Authentically has just been published, to discuss:

• His advice to young queer professionals on how to be authentic at work and in life
• Finding LGBTQ+ allies, and becoming an ally for future generations
• “Coming out” versus “inviting in”: the journey to an authentic self involves making yourself vulnerable to others and asking for help

“The New World of Work” explores how top-tier executives see the future and how their companies are trying to set themselves up for success. Each week, Ignatius talks to a top leader on LinkedIn Live — previous interviews included Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella and former PepsiCo CEO Indra Nooyi. He also shares an inside look at these conversations —and solicits questions for future discussions — in a newsletter just for HBR subscribers. If you’re a subscriber, you can sign up here.

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ADI IGNATIUS:

Jim, welcome.

JIM FIELDING:

Thank you for having me. Incredible honor.

ADI IGNATIUS:

Your book is, as you put it, a queer executive’s journey. Fortune magazine recently calculated that there are four openly gay CEOs in the Fortune 500. That’s up from zero in 2014 when Tim Cook came out or was outed, however you view that. But when you hear that number, what do you think?

JIM FIELDING:

Not surprising, frustrating, and I think partially part of the message of the book. If you just use the law of averages and you say, OK, 10% of the country is queer, LGBTQ, that percentage doesn’t make sense. But I also think, Adi, if you talked about women, people of color, minorities, the other minorities or marginalized communities, the numbers would be low as well.

It makes me kind of sad because I think that means there’s wasted talent, because I know in my community how many bright, creative, innovative, talented people there are that deserve their shot in the C-suite.

ADI IGNATIUS:

You’re not saying that, oh, there must be many more who are in the closet who aren’t comfortable coming out.

JIM FIELDING:

That could be. I can’t speak for the other 496. I think it varies by industry. I think it varies by everybody’s individual story. I’m certainly not here to force people to share their stories or to out people. It may be higher. But if the person’s not comfortable identifying that way or sharing their story, then we have to respect that.

ADI IGNATIUS:

In your book you say there could be an impenetrable glass ceiling for queer executives in your industry, which by the way is entertainment and I’m guessing is more queer-friendly than a lot of other industries. How have you sensed this glass ceiling?

JIM FIELDING:

It’s almost like an innate sense. It’s like an internal feeling of not belonging to the right club, where you can pick up, you can sense something in a group meeting or you can sense something in the feedback you might receive from your leader or supervisor or in your performance review if you’re still at the point where you’re getting regular performance reviews.

And it’s about sharing stories and sharing commonalities. In many cases, as a queer executive, when you walk into a room of eight or 10 people, you might be the only self-identifying out, gay executive. And so your story by nature is different. I don’t have kids. Many queer executives do have kids. So I can’t talk about what schools my kids are applying to or universities they’re going to. It’s just there’s not that common language, those common topics that make you fit easily into the conversation.

You could call it the old-boys network, you could call it the men’s club. It still feels that way in many situations, including in my industry and from other people I’ve talked to in other industries. Diversity in the C-suite, diversity in the CEO suite overall, not just queer diversity, has been a hot topic and will continue to be a hot topic because the C-suites, particularly in America, Fortune 100 or Fortune 500, Fortune 1000, does not really reflect the community at large, the constituency of America anymore.

ADI IGNATIUS:

To what extent has that changed since you first joined the executive force? You talk in the book about feeling insecure as you’ve taken new jobs and whether you could be your authentic self. Do you think it would be different today?

JIM FIELDING:

It’s situational, Adi. It depends on the industry, on the geography. I lived for 25 years in California. I think there’s certain states and legislatures that are more queer friendly. Right now, if I was living in Texas or Florida, I’m not sure I would feel as comfortable. I am reading stories every day of teachers and education professionals who are feeling they can’t live their authentic selves in certain states or certain school districts in the United States.

Is it easier than it was when I first came out in the ’80s? Yes, I think there’s been a ton of progress. We obviously have more protections than we had when I first came out. But I still think it’s very situational. And in that case, you have to take into consideration the person’s individual story, their industry, their tenure with the company, their tenure with the school district before you can really say it’s easier. Because honestly in the last year, it’s gotten harder for some people.

ADI IGNATIUS:

You mentioned that it varies according to state or industry. I think about certain industries where no one dares to come out. I think of sports where it’s close to zero, of the pressure to remain in the closet in certain places in certain industries. Can you talk about the pressure to remain in the closet? It must be brutal if you’re trying to be, as you say, your authentic self and you feel like society is saying, “No, stay in there.”

JIM FIELDING:

I lived it. I wrote about it in the book. I was in my 20s, I was in my first job, it was in the fashion industry. I was doing extremely well and I was living a double life. I was in a relationship that I wasn’t sharing outside of a very tight circle of people. Changing pronouns, changing stories. That inauthenticity created emotional, physical, and mental problems. I was having migraines. I was having stomach problems. I was way too young to be feeling that amount of stress. Getting help from a therapist, talking to my really close friends that I could share my story with.

In my case, this is the ’80s, it was a very different time. I felt like I had to leave that company and search for another role with a company that was going to allow me to fully embrace myself. That’s when I made the move to the Gap and spent nine incredible years there. A huge reason I took that job was because during the entire interview process, every person I met with, I presented authentically as myself. If they asked about my family situation, or they asked about things I did on the weekend, or what interests me, I didn’t switch to a more heterosexual-sounding answer. I just answered as myself. That was a huge reason why I made that switch in my career.

I know not everybody can do that. I know not every queer individual has the opportunity to move geographies or move companies or move roles. But for me, I never felt better. I honestly think my success started really for me almost when I was 26 and came out, because I feel that I was a better executive, a better person, a better leader, a better friend, just better to be around because I didn’t have that level of worry, didn’t have that level of stress anymore.

ADI IGNATIUS:

I have to ask, what is a heterosexual sounding answer? Does it come with a special accent?

JIM FIELDING:

It’s so funny. Yeah, exactly. You change your voice.

ADI IGNATIUS:

“I have to pick up the wife.”

JIM FIELDING:

You change your voice. “I have to pick up the wife and the golden retriever, and we’re going to our son’s little league game.” No, it’s funny, because I am a queer man that absolutely loves sports, so I can do the sports thing because I love college and professional sports. I couldn’t really say, my partner and I went and saw a musical this weekend. At that time, didn’t feel like the right answer in many of those situations.

ADI IGNATIUS:

I hope your story is inspiring to people who are wrestling with this.

JIM FIELDING:

Me, too.

ADI IGNATIUS:

There must be people who are watching this or who would read your book who are like, “OK, I hear that. Good for you. But I just don’t dare. I’m in this state or in this industry, or it’s too scary.” What’s your advice to people who are feeling that?

JIM FIELDING:

I’m not cavalier about this at all. I feel for those people. I am not saying, read my book and follow the 10 leadership lessons and your life will be milk and honey. I’ve talked to several people, even lately on this journey, who absolutely just do not feel comfortable and feel that they would hurt their economic security, their financial security, or their personal security to come out at work and they don’t have the ability to change.

What I’ve said to them is, “I hear that. I respect that. I feel sorry for you. But then what I ask you to do is, when you are at home and when you are in a safe space, is home safe to you? Are the things you’re doing outside of work feeding your soul and allowing you to be who you authentically are? Can you volunteer with local queer organizations? Do you get to express your queerness in other ways outside of work? If you have to be that closeted and that concerned at work, then I really hope in your personal life you can expand nights and weekends.”

Even though it feels like we’re working full time, we do have our own personal time and we do have choices that we can make. Of course, when somebody comes to me for advice, I ask, “Do you have the ability to change companies? Do you have the ability to move? Would that work for you?” And if not, then I really encourage them to stretch their individuality and their authenticity outside of work.

ADI IGNATIUS:

I want to jump to an audience question that’s apropos of where we are in the conversation. This is from Angela in Colorado. “I have a queer child. What recommendations would you have to help a young person prepare best for the current working world and to prepare for leadership?”

JIM FIELDING:

That’s amazing. First off, the fact that your child has a mother that’s willing to identify that and you’re having that conversation is a huge step in the right direction. I think it’s having those conversations and building their confidence and building their awareness and building their network around them of friends and family, so that when they do get challenged—and they will get challenged at times—they can proudly sit in their authenticity and share their story.

In an interview process or a job search process, if it feels that they’re going to ask them to change, my feeling is, if you’ve given them that foundation, they most likely are going to identify that quickly and realize that that position or that role or that company is not for them.

The best thing that parents can do is be supportive and love them unconditionally and help them build their network around them. Even if they’re doing internships, if they’re in college, or even if they’re part-time jobs, all of that should be in safe, productive, respectful environments, because that’s building their foundation for entering the work world.

That goes for any child, by the way, not just queer children. I think that goes for any. The work world is hard. It’s very different from school. It’s very different from being at home. I think if you have confidence and a strong foundation, that carries you a long way.

ADI IGNATIUS:

Your childhood, even though we know that you made it through and had a great career, reading the book passages about you being bullied constantly at school, that was painful to read. How did you persevere? It sounds like it was brutal.

JIM FIELDING:

It was brutal. Thank you. Brutal to read, brutal to write. I had those friends who I did reach out to. It is such a different time, though, Adi. I was struggling with that in the ’70s and ’80s. I don’t think schools, administrators, teachers, counselors, the mental health world was remotely equipped to deal with my situation. I do think there are a lot of available resources now for children who are questioning their sexuality. It’s not always easy, but there are more available resources now.

I had two amazing teachers and three friends who, even though I couldn’t even say it out loud to myself because I was still struggling with it internally, they gave me safe environments to just relax. Because it was pretty much a daily: the bullying, the physical, emotional, verbal taunting. It was pretty much daily.

But I had a couple amazing hours in the day, including one independent study hour, where it was me and one other student with the teacher that was my refuge from all that. I just kept focused on, I knew that there was life for me outside of Toledo, Ohio. I had some amazing older friends, including a woman I talk about in the book, Amanda Miller, who I watched get out and go away to school, and that became my drive. I said, “I have to get good grades. I have to study hard. I have to learn. I have to participate in clubs because I need to get scholarships and I need to go away from here, because this place is not allowing me to really explore and identify who I am completely.”

ADI IGNATIUS:

That touches on the power of an ally. The power of somebody who connects with you for who you are and how that can be life-changing. There’s a question from Mark in Chicago and it builds on that. What are some tips for exercising allyship to the LGBTQ+ community?

JIM FIELDING:

The LGBTQ community, we walk hand-in-hand with our allies. The entire gay rights movement, allies were a huge part of that process and continue to be. For the queer individual, for the LGBTQ individual, I talk about this term, inviting people in rather than coming out. Inviting people into your story. It’s a vulnerability exercise and a trust exercise when you identify someone who you think is going to be able to handle your story and handle your confidentiality and be honest with you and be your friend.

It’s really on us as the queer individual to invite that other person into our story, and then be willing to say to them, “This is how you can help me.” And be willing to ask for help. I went too long not asking for help. There were people who were there that I could have asked for help, but it was on me to say, “Hey, I’ve got something to tell you and I really need to share,” and trust that it was going to be okay.

There’s an entire chapter, learning number four in the book, about nurturing all of your families, including your chosen family. And I realized that I started building my chosen family when I was 14 and 15 years old in high school. I didn’t know what it was called. I didn’t know I was building an ally network. There was no book to read, there was no guidebook to follow. But I realized that I was finding my confidants and my confidence through my confidants, and I was charting these lifelong relationships, that I’m still friends with people that I went to middle school with, that I went to high school with, and particularly my college friends. That became a lifelong relationship and the support network that I needed.

ADI IGNATIUS:

The pressure that you felt to be normal, it must manifest itself in other ways other than just in sexual identity. Do you ever think about other ways in which we are adapting ourselves to some perception of “normal” to fit into corporate culture that may be similarly inauthentic or unhealthy?

JIM FIELDING:

I love Hollywood, I love the media industry. It probably won’t make me super popular, but the car you drive, the clubs you belong to, if you have a second home, a vacation home, where is that vacation home: I think there’s a lot of external trappings that are all about trying to fit in and all about trying to fit this norm of what a successful executive looks like or a successful CEO looks like. And I’m not sure that all the reasons we do that are authentic.

Listen, if you want to drive a super expensive car and that gives you joy, go for it, if that’s your authenticity. But if you’re doing it because you’re seeking external validation or someone giving you a thumbs up saying, “That’s a really cool car,” and you somehow get better feelings out of that, I think that’s where you have to look inward and say, “What are my true motivations for doing this?”

And I think it’s a little bit of my Midwestern-ness, a little bit of my dad, God bless him, I still talk to him every day, even though he has been gone 11 years, who was so Midwestern and so frugal and not wrapped up in external trappings. Still, every time I buy something expensive, I still hear him in my head saying, “Do you really need that? I don’t really think you need that. Okay, you need a new watch. Do you really need the Rolex? I think the Timex is fine.” I can totally hear him saying that.

But if it’s something I’m doing for me and I’m comfortable in that for me, that’s great. If I’m doing it because I want other people to say, “Oh, that’s an amazing watch,” that’s a problem. That’s a warning sign.

ADI IGNATIUS:

That’s a brand identity too, the non-branded brand identity.

JIM FIELDING:

Totally. Yeah.

ADI IGNATIUS:

Another question from the audience. This is from Ben from Chicago. I don’t know if you’ve thought about this, but now that many of us are working remotely or on a hybrid basis, how can we create and sustain a strong authentic workplace when we’re dispersed the way we are now?

JIM FIELDING:

Thank you, Ben, for this question. This is a very real-world challenge right now, and a particular management challenge for myself because I’m such a physical in-person manager. I love pulling everybody into rooms. I love small group meetings and big group meetings. I read rooms really, really well, and I like to engage with people in that kind of setting. I’ve had to learn new skills in this environment with Zoom and Google Meet and Teams and working virtually.

One of the things I worry about is, it can force you back into isolation. It can force you back into making a perfect little box that you’re appearing in, but then once the camera gets turned off, you’re actually very lonely and you’re actually very in your own thoughts.

A lot of the companies that I work with right now through my consulting business of Archer Gray, most people are going back to some version of hybrid. There’s still some people that are a hundred percent virtual, but most people are going back to some version of hybrid.

What I’ve been working with, the executives that I consult with, is that on those days where you’re bringing back people into the offices, to make sure that you’re creating meetings and experiences and moments that make it worth them being in the office. That can only happen when two or more people are in a room together. Brainstorming sessions or ideation sessions.

Because the worst thing that can happen to a company right now is you say to people, “I need you in the office Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,” and then they come in and they sit at their desk all day and they’re on Zoom meetings. You’re going to have that problem where people will be like,” I’d rather just do this from home then. I could take care of my children, I could take care of my pets. It would just be easier for me.”

In this new work environment, you have to find ways that when your teams are in person, there’s real value in the activities you’re having them do. There’s certain things that you can only do in person. I am old-school. Brainstorming, whiteboarding, those kind of ideation sessions, whatever you call them, I love having five or six people in a room with pieces of paper or whiteboards to write on. I have tried every whiteboarding tool that goes with Zoom or Teams or Google Meet, and it just has not been as effective for me. But I’m trying to learn because I’m respecting that this is the way of work today.

ADI IGNATIUS:

We’ve talked about that on the show before, that the workplace is a tool or the workplace is a clubhouse or it has to be something that makes sense if we’re going to take the trouble of getting people to be back physically.

JIM FIELDING:

A hundred percent.

ADI IGNATIUS:

Your book is political in some ways. You seem to have embraced the notion that to come out, to be talking about your journey, is a political act, particularly in this polarized environment. That’s probably a burden that many people wouldn’t want. People are happy with their choices but not eager to be in the public arena. What would be your advice for those people?

JIM FIELDING:

It’s up to the individual. I think it’s individual choice. I write in the book that I never thought just by living my lifestyle authentically, I’d become an activist. But where I am in my life right now, the times we’re in right now, I have to continue to share my story, because I don’t feel that the narrative for the queer community can be controlled by any part of the political spectrum, the far-left, the far-right, anybody. I need to share my story because it is my story and I don’t want anyone else telling my story.

I realize that by living openly in the relationship I’m in and the style that I live in, that that can put a target on my back in some cases and that some people will not appreciate it or will not condone it or will not like it.

I’m getting ready to go out on the road, the book just came out this week. I’m sure that I’m going to get confronted in certain places. I really hope it’s healthy, honest discussion. And in some cases, that it’s a debate, because I’m not here to change people’s minds. I’m trying just to expose people to the realities of how I live and what it’s meant in my life. And I’m also trying to make it better for the generations that are coming behind me.

Not just for queer generations. I feel that if we can create safe, respectful, empowering work environments and communities, that works for everybody because I think everybody wants to be safe and respected at work. I don’t think it’s just queer people or women or people of color. I think we all want to feel that I can be authentic and everybody has their own quirks and their own needs, and I think everybody has their own authenticity.

My story is my story. Adi, you have a story. The people watching and reading this, they all have a story, and I think everybody just wants to be respected and allowed to be the person they were meant to be.

ADI IGNATIUS:

When I look at the big picture, I think there’s been a lot of progress in terms of enshrining rights or recognizing rights or recognizing authenticity. At the same time, there’s a backlash. This conversation has been very US focused, and I understand discussions would be very different elsewhere. But even here in a US environment, there is this backlash.

I have a gay son. He’s worried that the rights of gay marriage could be rescinded with a conservative Supreme Court. Are you optimistic about the path of progress or do you feel like it’s a battle and every day is a struggle?

JIM FIELDING:

I’m an optimist by nature. I think the situation that we’re in right now has made me be more pragmatic and a realist. I’m worried. Like your son, I’m worried about the right to marry being rescinded by this court. When Roe versus Wade was overturned by the Supreme Court, we actually had a sitting Supreme Court Justice who said that was the next thing on his agenda: the right to marry.

It’s not like we should be surprised. There are over 500 pieces of anti-LGBTQ legislation pending across the United States. Some of them in states, some of them in cities, some of them in school districts.

That’s a scary number. People are losing their jobs. People are quitting their jobs because of legislation in their particular school district or municipality. I’m reading of families with gay children or trans children who are thinking about leaving certain municipalities because they don’t have access to gender-affirming mental health or medical care. Doctors are quitting because they don’t feel that they’re able to provide the level of care to an individual that they swore the Hippocratic Oath for.

I read these stories every day and it does make me nervous. I have to be realistic and pragmatic. But I also think when I wrote the book, I never thought it would be coming out necessarily in this political environment, but I realized it’s more than just a book, it’s a conversation. It’s a community, and I have to continue to put myself out there and have conversations like we’re having, Adi, and conversations with other people because the only way we’re going to overcome this is by sharing our stories and sharing the facts and not allowing any part of the political spectrum to demonize our lifestyle.

ADI IGNATIUS:

My only bit of wisdom from having been on this earth for a while is that there’s no guarantee of progress. Sometimes you see it and imagine it’s a straight line, but you really have to struggle for what you believe in.

JIM FIELDING:

You can’t take anything for granted. I write in the book, “Democracy is work and it’s a responsibility, not a right.” I’ve always been politically active, and I’ve always been a donor and use my voice. And I think now that I work in a different type of company, in a smaller company with like-minded partners, I’m even more free than I’ve been earlier in my career to share my authenticity in that sphere as well.

ADI IGNATIUS:

So I want to go to a question from Darcy from Wisconsin. What are your thoughts on incorporating metrics, performance measures, to include LGBTQ+ measurements of some kind? And if you think that’s good, what kind of metrics would you recommend?

JIM FIELDING:

It’s interesting, I’ve had this conversation in higher education. I do a lot of work in higher education where I would love to see on the admission forms or on applications if people chose to identify as a member of the queer community that we could actually track. Because even just self-identifying as a community and being actually able to track the percentage of students who identify with a particular community could help towards allocating resources and recognizing the size of the community.

I don’t think metrics should be used against us though either. I think they have to be used to say, “I would like to track all of the marginalized or minority communities in my company or in my community, not just the queer community, to look and see are we being representative in our business practices, in our community practices, in how we’re conducting ourselves?”

Sometimes just a simple honest census is the first metric that I would be an advocate of. Once you have that, you can start to go deeper into the community because LGBTQIA+, there’s a lot of different identities within that community. We have to be careful about saying that what works for one part of the queer community will absolutely work for another part of the queer community. I think we are different. We are sub-communities within the larger community as well.

ADI IGNATIUS:

Jim, I want to thank you for sharing your story on this show and in the book. Thank you for being on the show.

JIM FIELDING:

Oh my gosh. It’s an incredible opportunity. Adi, I really appreciate you and your entire team and everybody who called in today.