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Hi Royce and Oliver, I have a suggestion: look into dimming the screen slowly for the last 30-60 seconds before you pull a person out of the app. This will greatly decrease the annoyance of being pulled out. It gives you time to anticipate being done with your session. I do this with my toddler. We let him use our phone to look at family videos while we are changing him. If I turn the phone off abruptly, it can be frustrating for him at times. However, if I manually dim the screen more and more (and lower the volume more and more), it feels natural that the phone is getting "tired". He is then okay with leaving the phone.
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This is brilliant, will absolutely hack around with it this weekend. I think it's possible to temporarily modify brightness on iOS as a third party app, thanks very much for the suggestion
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Instead of brightness, you could make the screen go black and white. I already do this to reduce my screen time. You can set screen colors in accessibility, and scrolling instagram is much more boring when it's in B&W.
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I have my triple tap set to B&W, definitely makes things a lot less interesting.
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I had that and found it to be less effective since it was so easy to disable it. I'm now using the iOS shortcut automation turning on the BW mode at 10pm and then disabling it at 5pm.
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same. wish there was a shortcut i could place on my home screen as a toggle though.
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Absolutely gold suggestion. This might just be the future for most internet-connected device use, and particularly for children/supervised use like you're describing.
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Do you have physical brightness buttons? Do you have any more gradual transition hacks? Our 2-yr old doesn't have access to phones at all -- except perhaps when he grabs one that's lying around; but then he expects it taken from him. But he's so taken with TV that we plan screen time in reverse: start at dinner time and subtract how much time we want him to be there. Our whole approach to tantrums is having something else lined up rather than just shutting things off and leaving a void. I'm fascinated by your methods.
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We don’t have a tv in the house. And we don’t use our phones/iPad in front of our son. So the only time he sees a screen is when we are changing his diaper. The only exception has been when we are all sick we watch a family movie on the iPad with him. And if I’m being honest a few Saturday mornings I’ll watch a show with him while we are waking up. I use control center to lower the brightness.
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he's probably just surreptitiously using control center to dial things down. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202769One thing I discovered recently was that iPhone volume buttons decrement the volume 1/16 at a time.
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Correct, as he gets older this won’t work because he will understand what I’m doing. I’ve thought about writing an app that shows a pre set collection of videos from my photo library and then slowly turns down the brightness after a few minutes. If anyone want to build this let me know. I’d love to use it.
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It's this and a thousand other "hacks to handle human failings" that will allow us to have the promise of technology while minimising the downsides - just as we did for weavers looms, coal
power and so on
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I've been using the app for a few months to gatekeep Twitter and Instagram, and my only real issue is that sometimes when those apps are linked to from other places, I just want to be able to quickly see it and then stop my doomscrolling. e.g. if my friend sends me a tweet, I want to be able to click the link, read the tweet, and then be immediately locked out of the app. With the current system, I click the link, have to do the whole 10s breathing exercise + quote, then read the tweet, and I still have a bit of time to mess around in the app before I'm locked out. So I actually end up spending more time distracted in those situations than I otherwise would.
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love this callout, this is definitely on our roadmap. we refer to it internally as "one-tweet." basically - we'd love to be able to either 1. render that single tweet on the shield so you don't even have to enter the app to see it 2. let you passively stack up all the links you get sent socially, like a reading list, so you can work through them all at once. will keep you posted on which way we go but definitely going to address this because it's a pain-point of mine as well.
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ha, that's the first time I ever heard that term "doomscrolling", definitely feels that way in many places. Makes me think of what the opposite would look like. Something in the direction of https://www.dictionary.com/e/pop-culture/glow-up/ but for websites.
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Love the idea of interrupting the "dopamine loop" with a delay vs. simply tracking or restricting usage. I worked on creating a Chrome Extension several years ago for myself and I can't believe I didn't have this (in retrospect) obvious idea. I have a few concerns: * The UI feels somewhat unpolished for asking me to purchase an annual plan on signup. * I would prefer a free version that is fully featured for a short trial period that later reverts to a limited (one app) version. I have more than one problem app and it's hard to get a feel right now. * Can I overlap schedules (i.e. open during lunch and any time during the weekend)? * How do I set this up for something like YouTube? I have several modes of using this app:
1) mindlessly watching 5-10 minute videos looking for the next one, or
2) setting up a long playlist while I'm working out and treating it as a podcast app.
I only want to prevent the former.
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I can relate to this.
I created SuperFocus ( https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/superfocus-stop-sc...) with a similar idea. Dopamine loop is a big problem. I have tried site blockers / SuperFocus which is a feed blocker but there was something missing and have been looking for the magic solution. Just signed up for Clearspace and immediately felt this is it. Planning to rewrite SuperFocus later this week to do the same on desktop as most of my time spent is on the desktop browser.
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Hey this is great and something I started on working myself.
Just a note that if you pin the extension on the extension page itself it gives a very, very confusing message of
"SuperFocus works on Youtube, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. SuperFocus is not yet available for
dboceidahklphhjpfbpnicodnbkoiokn." thought it was a bug before I realised that must be the chrome extension id, but it's quite likely people will first open the extension on this tab as that's where you teach them to pin it keep up the good work!
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- fair enough, for some users they reach us at a point of "I'm wholesale re-arranging my digital life RIGHT NOW" so they'd prefer to subscribe annually at signup and remove all barriers to better digital habits while they're in the mindset of habit change. will give this some thought. - we've been thinking about experimenting with this model. I personally find it annoying forgetting to unsubscribe to things I only wanted to trial but I understand your use case. - yes you can do this - quick demo here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W7gU6ZhlA-fiLx0T2j5h9A14rdc... - hmm, you could alter your youtube session options so that your only options are 45 minutes or longer? this wouldn't explicitly prevent you from shorter sessions, but might cause you to think "wait I don't have 45 minutes right now - forget it". would be curious to hear if that works for you.
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It is wholly interesting that such a tool is needed. We need a new generation motivated by self-control and at an early age be critical of how technology triggers dopamine responses. I would be interested in seeing clinical classification of app addictions as a real health issue that deserves treatment. The real answer is to put down the phone. We (in this industry) are all complicit in the creation and promulgation of this problem.
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I would disagree. I don’t think it is on people to just be more “motivated by self-control”. I think it is an industry making a highly addictive product that needs to be properly regulated. Similar to regulating the tobacco industry in how much nicotine could be in cigarettes, the marketing to children, the restriction of the most addictive flavors, etc. The answer cannot just be “to put down the phone” the same as it wasn’t/isn’t just to put down the cigarette. I think that digital devices/apps/etc. need left and right limits on addictive mechanisms like variable reinforcement schedules. Or maybe it is too late for that and the genie is out of the bottle. Maybe it is impossible to regulate, and big data and deep learning will allow apps to exploit deeper and deeper psychological mechanisms in our minds to highjack our attention until it is impossible to break out of it. The digital equivalent of fentanyl in a world were we evolved to handle opium poppy plants.
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Why build an app when you can just replace humanity with something different and not reflective of actual humans?
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Here is a simple change I did which reduced my phone usage: 1. Deleted all the native social media apps from phone 2. Stored passwords in a vault on my personal laptop If I do need to "use" a site, I've to do it only through my personal laptop.
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I’ve been using onesec[1] for a year now it’s been working great for me. Additionally works great on the browser I use. Onesec uses the shortcut/automation on iOS to intercept app open and not the screen time api you mentioned. So it does take a little time for the initial setup, that’s the only friction I remember from a long time. Just putting it out there. I do like the additional social feature here. Would give it a try. 1. https://one-sec.app/
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they've executed brilliantly, glad to see it's working well for you. along with the one-tap setup and social accountability features you point out, other noticeable differences between their solution and our are - we can pull you out of an app at the end of the time you intended to use it for - we support restricting websites - we let you accumulate your progress over time via a streak, which is quite motivating (at least for me personally)
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One sec lets you restrict websites! But the other two features you listed are compelling. I may give it a try
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Great work! I think apps like this will be seen as pioneers in the age of getting back our attention.
From somebody else very interested in the topic, with a pending HN application for a startup app in the same space
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though I do like this app. this app, along with onesec really illustrate what's annoying about modern tech development. why pay monthly for something whose feature set rarely changes? something like this ideally should be $10 once.
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We actually do expect our product to change quite a bit over time, basically because of the nature of the arena we're playing in. platforms will change over time, as will they apps we're helping moderate, and we'll always be trying to integrate as seamlessly as possible to play defense for our users. As such, we think a recurring subscription is the best way to align our interests with our users and make sure we're building the right thing over time. When customers are consistently paying, if we don't consistently deliver the value they're paying for, they leave. It means we're in a tighter feedback loop with users about what's working and what isn't. Basically we think it's mission-critical that the technology protecting your attention to be as well built as the tech trying to exploit it, and our best guess at the moment is recurring subscription is the best way to accomplish that.
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i found this a few weeks ago and have been really enjoying it. i’m on the paid plan. my screen time on twitter and instagram has gone down significantly as a result of the slight inconvenience every time i open them. and doing the breathing exercise before plunging into hellish social media is also surprisingly refreshing. the app is a little bit buggy, which sometimes makes it impossible to “pause” it. but one could argue that’s a feature not a bug! overall impressed with Clearspace’s clever approach to this issue.
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Same here. Managed to wean off twitter. No longer feeling the urge or need to check it.
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appreciate that! definitely working through the bugs one by one - both bugs in our code and frankly bugs in the ScreenTime API itself. but we're starting to converge on a stable state, and to their credit Apple has been fairly responsive in moving the API along and responding to developer requests.
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Wow. I didn't know Apple let apps have that level of restriction on other installed apps. Perhaps I'm behind on my iOS APIs. I'd be eager to learn more on what kind of parental-control/screen-time magic goes into this. This is really cool, like incredibly cool. Screen Time reminders just did not work for me, it was a no-brainer to just hit "Get more time" and put in my passcode, but this adds a lot more friction. Still, I think it's a bandaid on a larger problem, and if I was truly addicted (which I very well could be), I would just change the settings or uninstall the app. Not a problem you can solve, of course, but this is still a great leap forward.
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The biggest problem I experienced with Screen Time is that when an app is outside of its limits, push notifications from it do not get delivered. So enabling the feature caused me to end up missing out on timely push notifications. Sometimes the notifications during the downtime got delivered later and sometimes they just never appeared at all. This seems like a bug to me, or at best a very unintuitive side effect. I wish there were a way to still have push notifications delivered normally and only have Screen Time effect actual app usage.
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totally agree - exceptionally unintuitive side effect. we've been pushing on the apple support ecosystem to add the ability to "shield" apps without obstructing their notifications, and other developers have been piling on. fingers crossed for WWDC23
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We might be able to get there at some point. Yes you can uninstall us, but if you have a support network that automatically gets notified if you uninstall us, you might think twice about it.
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> ... if I was truly addicted ... I would just ... uninstall the app. Not a problem you can solve, of course, but this is still a great leap forward. Their feature of triggering a text to a trusted friend for accountability if you do this was really clever.
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This is great. When do you plan to release the Android version?
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Why/how is your app better than setting native screen time limits in iOS? Doesn’t that accomplish the same thing (except tapping numbers rather than seeing a quote). (All that said, glad you’re poking at this issue!)
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a few ways! but the most succinct answer is that with clearspace, no learned behavior path can become a compulsive habit for quickly getting more scrolling. every configuration of screen time limits we've tried has ended with us learning the quickest behavioral path to more scrolling (ie: quickly tapping "5 more minutes", entering passcode, etc).
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more tactically: 1. we hit you with friction every time you enter an app you want to moderate your engagement with. with screen time limits, as long as you're under your budget, you'll get through no problem. in time this means you learn that early in the day is the best time to use social apps. we think this is a second order failure. 2. we let you stack your progress over time with your streak, which seems to be a far better behavioral motivator for staying in line with your goals. 3. we report usage for the apps you actually care about moderating. (I basically ignore my native screen time report, because "being up 25% this week" might mean I went on a long drive and was using maps to navigate, or that I doom-scrolled in bed until 3am.) we try to report data you actually care about (there's a ton we still need to do on this front, but we're getting better at it)
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Love what you're building! You mentioned to lukko above (lungy.app) that you might be interested in collabing, and then above you mention streaks... wanted to make sure you knew that with apps you can "call" other apps via shortcuts/urls and even get return data. At some point I'm hoping to work with a streaks app (rather than build it myself) etc etc.
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Struggling with this right now and would pay immediately if it were available on Android. Keep it up!
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The nag/friction that happens every time I try to open the app when I'm under buddget on this has cut down my doomscrolling so much. Really a fan of this approach - Twitter usage is down probably 95%. General stoke on this is really high!
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Really cool! I did try One Sec, but actually setting up the shortcut to divert is quite tedious, and it only works at the point of opening the restricted app. I like the UI, just wondering if the 'Breathe' prompt will get old quite quickly. I created an app (https://www.lungy.app) that tries to make each breathing session feel very different, hopefully making it feel fresh each time - I wonder if more variation would work in this case too.
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This is INCREDIBLY cool. And yes - the breathe screen definitely does get old, but fortunately the friction continues to do its job. Would you be interested in collabing?
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Yep, definitely. I think it'd be a good fit - email hello [at] lungy [dot] app
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15 seconds isn't very long. By making those seconds not boring (engaging the user), I feel that would cause the opposite effect of the intended self-reflection and friction the 15 seconds are supposed to create
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Been using this for the past couple of weeks; reduced my instagram usage time by over 80%. Loving the approach you took for this!
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thank you! these anecdotes are literally what get us out of bed in the morning
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Do the usage limitation controls also apply to Safari and other mobile browsers? I.e. if I add the Facebook app to clearspace, can I also add friction to using Facebook.com? This looks great by the way
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When I had it block the Twitter mobile app, it also blocked twitter.com - I assume the same thing will happen if you block Facebook. The founders have mentioned they're adding support for blocking specific websites soon.
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yes - you can. this works "out of the box" for safari (ie - if you add facebook, you'll have to go through friction to reach facebook.com on safari without doing anything else.) we just added support for chrome and other browsers by allowing you to associate domains with apps you've added. so associating facebok.com with your facebook app applies that same friction regardless of browser now.
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Freedom.to has been working pretty effectively for me on Android.
You guys care to comment on why your approach may be better? Definitely willing to try you guys out
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We don't have an android solution yet, so stick with them for now :) We found Freedom’s VPN solution to be great for completely blocking out distractions when you don’t need any internet and want to focus in on certain tasks. That can be helpful for mobile too, but we've found the day-in-day-out experience of injecting "intentionality" just-in-time to be more effective for us than pre-scheduled “allowed” and “not allowed” blocks.
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ok. I tried it out, bought the subscription and it's super buggy. The blanks screens between the flow are just not smooth at all. Having to manage the notifications and the inbetween screens - is a mess. And when the you get an error that this app has been prevented from opening b/c it is restricted - and get caught in a loop - it's pretty off putting. Back to shortcuts for me.
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sorry for the frustrating experience. it sounds like something went wrong here - would you mind opening the app -> settings -> report an error? that way I'll be able to see your user id and track down the issue.
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This looks great! The only thing I'd really advocate for is not pricing the app ridiculously. I tried Opal for a while, but their pricing model per month is a bit ridiculous. Effectively a subscription service for what should be a single-purchase app demonstrates developer greed. Edit: I'm a bit disappointed to see monthly fees here. Can you help justify to me why an app like this demands ongoing cost?
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I hear that. The truth is that it's not solely about generating revenue, but aligning interests and making sure we're building the right thing over time. When customers are consistently paying, if we don't consistently deliver the value they're paying for, they leave. It means we're in a tighter feedback loop with users about what's working and what isn't. It also lets us plan for the long term since we have a decent idea of what our revenue will be. Particularly in this space that's going to be important - we'll have to continuously evolve to changes in the platforms we're operating on and the apps themselves that we're helping restrict. Basically we think it's mission-critical that the technology protecting your attention to be as well built as the tech trying to exploit it, and we see this as * probably * the most effective way to accomplish that.
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Thanks for the reply. Ultimately my willingness to pay would come down to how things improve for me using it. I'll perhaps give the paid plan a try. One possible thing I'd recommend on a trial is to have more of a real(?) experience. Curious how the one-app limitation ends up conveying in terms of realized value. Will report back. Thanks again, and nice looking product.
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How does Clearspace differentiate itself from One Sec, which has existed in this space for almost two years (if not longer)? I’m particularly interested in:
- Is Clearspace cheaper over time? - Does Clearspace work on websites as well as apps? - Does Clearspace require manual Shortcuts setup like One Sec does? - Are there features here that I don’t know I want?
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great question. a few ways 1. no, we're more expensive (at least last I checked they were 3.99/mon we're 6.99/mon or 44.99/yr) 2. yes we just rolled out website support this week. 3. no manual shortcut setup. just one click to add an app you want to moderate. (for websites you can go to an app you've added and just type in which web domains should apply to that app.) 4. yes, probably! we can pull you out of app sessions, which I personally find to be a game-changer. friction on the way in is great, but I tend to get lost in suggested content once I'm actually in an app. I need to be ripped out after a few minutes, and we do that. also adding "teammates" to receive automated texts when I'm slipping up has been very helpful for me personally.
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> no manual shortcut setup. just one click to add an app you want to moderate Is that true? When I click an app I'd like to moderate I see yellow text saying "Finish Setup!" Then I'm brought to the recorded video explaining how to do the shortcut setup. One click set up would be sweet, but I'd be somewhat surprised to hear apple lets you do the whole shortcut setup for the user. Would also be nice if the interrupt after your chosen amount of time were more intrusive, like apple's screentime notification is. And if you could make us do the breathing exercise again at that point. Regardless, think the app is very cool. I've been using a flip phone for a while to break phone addiction, which has been great overall. But I still keep my iphone around for things like traveling and a night out where I may need to use uber, and this seems like a great middle ground.
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a few differences! - one tap to set up an app with us (rather than creating an automation in your shortcuts app) - we can pull you out of an app at the end of the time you intended to use it for - we support restricting websites - we let you accumulate your progress over time via a streak, which is quite motivating (at least for me personally) - we have a social accountability layer, via "teammates" who receive updates when you exceed your budgets or remove tracking for an app
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Truly Awesome! However "the website is not supported" is a dealbreaker for me. I do my doom scrolling through browsers, as the apps have already been restricted through screen time.
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This is actually a bit of a misnomer at the moment, we need to update our messaging - but you can in fact restrict any websites you want. To do it, open clearspace and tap one of the apps you've already set up. Then click the "websites" section. You'll be able to associate domains there, so whenever that app is unlocked, those websites will be as well. Otherwise they're restricted. Hope this helps! Literally just rolling out website support so need to update the messaging in a few places, thanks for flagging.
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This isn't working for me on my macbook with the chrome extension. I've added cnn.com, nytimes.com, etc and I can still get to them on chrome with the extension. I've restarted my browser. Or am I misunderstanding that this is possible?
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I also doomscroll on a laptop. +1 for a MacOS version someday.
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Serious question: are we sure we get a dopamine reward/thing when we do this? Has this been proven? Not saying this "addiction" does not exist. I like some "drugs" and smoke and my phone is by far the worst and hardest to manage/quit.
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yes - more and more research is cropping up around the chemical response to social media usage but here's a particularly succinct paper - dopamine reward is absolutely associated. https://www.iomcworld.org/open-access/neurotransmitter-dopam... To Barrin's point, the jury is still out on formally qualifying this as "addiction" - and for most people the context of habit change is apt.
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No, it's modern day bloodletting. Dopamine is involved in almost everything and that's why this weird metaphor of 'dopamine fasting' blaming it for random things became popular, however there is no scientific basis for it. ( https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/dopamine-fasting-misunde...) It's not an addiction in any serious sense of the term and it's arguably misleading and disempowering people. Not every habit change needs to be framed as addiction battling.
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There's no single definition of addiction. Gabor Mate's sense of the term seems serious enough, and screentime/socialmedia habit certainly fits: a behavior that gives relief or pleasure but in the long run causes harm, and you can't give it up despite those negative consequences.
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Looking at my screen time stats, I spend most of my phone time in the browser. Is there a way to restrict specific websites instead of the browser as a whole?
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A few ways! - social accountability via teammates - data reporting and streaks - we think displaying habit-change progress should have a cumulative and compounding effect. streaks are proving particularly effective for our users in this regard - website support for non-safari browsers - more complex scheduling - Screenzen will let you specify 1-3pm on MWF, for example, but not 1-3pm and 9-11pm MWF) - much, much more to come. we're building for the cross platform future
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What is the benefit of this over Apple’s default screen time app?
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a few ways! but the most succinct answer is that with clearspace, no learned behavior path can become a compulsive habit for quickly getting more scrolling. every configuration of screen time limits we've tried has ended with us learning the quickest behavioral path to more scrolling (ie: quickly tapping "5 more minutes", entering passcode, etc).
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According to the app description, it’s free for a limited time though.
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How long until you get a FAANG acquihire offer where they quietly shut this app down? /s (kinda)
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I love the concept. Have you guys considered selling dumb phones? If done right I think you could make them a cool status item, or build a brand around the general idea of reverting to less addictive tech.
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we had a fun idea around a one month challenge - sendmeyourphone.com. basically you sign up, we mail you a dumb phone with instructions for putting your smartphone sim card in, and you mail us back your smart phone. after 30 days we send it back with some swag saying you did it and some instructions for restarting your digital life with good habits post-detox. would love to get around to it, but channeling steve jobs for now - "focus means saying no to a hundred other good ideas"
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This is something I'll happily pay for. Love to see the freemium model. Can't wait for the Android version
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How would your company protect itself against Sherlocking? (when an OS adds features previously available as 3rd party apps) It seems like Google's Digital Wellbeing or the Apple equivalent could steal these features.
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Ultimately, this wouldn't be the worst thing. We actually hope that a lot more attention will be paid this issue by the big players (from a personal and mission standpoint). That being said, we don’t actually think the best party to have helping you moderate your engagement with devices is the the one selling you the device. They may implement some of the same features but will always have to do some internal calculus on providing a smooth user experience and mitigating over-engagement. Our main goal is to equip people to reclaim control over their relationship with their devices - we think this is * probably * best solved by a startup
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are there docs available on the screentime API? I remember looking into doing this a while back, and nothing was available as recently as 6 months ago. would love to chat more about this if you have the time - any email i can reach you at?
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yes docs (albeit fairly sparse ones) are now available - feel free to email me, [email protected]
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Does this work for launching apps throw search? I’ve been wanting to try it, but I assume you’re doing the “replace an app with a shortcut that redirects trick.” I think the original all can still be found via search?
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It does yes! We actually aren't doing the "replace with a shift that redirects" trick. We're able to intervene on the native app by integrating with the new ScreenTime API
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What’s the distinction between the IOS inbuilt feature that does this?
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I downloaded One Sec a few days ago based upon an HN rec, and it's been really great for this class of problem
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I was wondering on IOS what api you are using to interject app call.
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"Some of this only recently became technically possible. The new ScreenTime API from Apple allows users to connect apps on their phone to third party apps (like us). We receive opaque "tokens" for each user app selection and we can perform actions on the tokens, which affects the apps without us knowing what the actual apps are. We can add and remove "shields" to a token, which presents an obstructing interface over an app or website. We can display a user's usage of a token over a time period and display that data to them."
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A pertinent question indeed - the OP was entirely devoid of detail! |
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love this. note that i struggled to find UK's country code in your list.
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My problem is that I use Chrome to check something reasonable and then find myself exiting this fugue state after I have made a dozen comments on various social media boards like HN or Reddit. When I've tried things that block browser before, they interrupt my normal work. That's frustrating so I disable them. Without sophistication I am never going to use a piece of software that just blocks apps. I hope your software is able to help people who have the problem but don't use the website version of things.
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My phone broke about a year ago and I never replaced it. That has made my life a lot better. More time to be in the moment with people and think. Highly recommend it. (I have an iPad Pro as you still need something that can run apps, but there's no risk of me lugging that thing around)
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I have dreamed of ditching the phone but haven't because so many sites that require a phone number to make an account, and some that use that number to validate your identity. How do you get around this?
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Did you replace it with a “dumb” phone for emergencies?
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No. For emergencies have had to rely on nearby human beings, like the 1990's.
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