Should CS Be Required for a High School Degree? - Slashdot

Posted by EditorDavid

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  • Re:

    And reading comprehension, and summarising. Critical thinking (not "critical theory", that's just bullshit) and information research ie "fact checking" is probably going to be rather important too.

    And all the other things you used to learn but no longer. At least one foreign language would be good, too.

    The one CS-related thing that would really be useful is touch-typing.

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      No one who has mastered "critical thinking" would consider "critical theory" to be nonsense. The latter is the logical consequence of the former, as long as the former is not hindered by ideology.

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        Critical theory produces quite a bit of bullshit because unlike science, it doesn't rely on experiment as the arbiter of truth.
        That's not to say that all of critical theory is bullshit, just that it has an agenda which is not always aligned with clarifying reality.

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            Think of who's telling you that. Ignorant people are easier to control.

      • Re: Betteridge to the rescue!

        Wow, nice attempt at pushing sickening, divisive disinfo.

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    Indeed. Computer Literacy? Absolutely. Some coding? Sure. But "computer science" should be among the science electives like physics and biology.

    People should know the basics of how computers and computer networks work, and particularly what happens with all their data as they use their devices and "cloud services". They should learn how to use all the basic types of applications... spreadsheets, word processors, image editors, etc. And even a little programming would be good just to gain a better und

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      I don't think this is talking about making every child a "coder" any more than HS Chemistry is about making every child qualified to be a Chemist's lab assistant coming right out of HS.
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          Basic chemistry should be required... what do plants and humans need to survive? How much CO2 is produced by burning a given amount of a hydrocarbon? How to read a periodic table and know what elements a compound contains. Etc.

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    Yep. Betteridge. All I see is a bunch of people who know very little about education pursuing personal agendas for whatever reason. There are sensible, rational, evidence-informed reasons for selecting which subjects they teach their children, what goes on the syllabus of each subject, & how it gets taught. How about they consult the experts &, who knows, maybe they can lift the USA's maths scores from 8 places below the OECD average? (The USA scores between Belarus & Hungary & is 113 points

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      Exactly - I would rather see students have a basic foundation in hard sciences and math up to trig or pre-calculus. The push to include CS in high school is nice if they already have the foundation -- otherwise it smacks of tech companies just wanting high schools to turn out compliant coders without any other career options.

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    And basic biology, physics, and chemistry pretty please. I went to a small town high school where both intro biology and chemistry were mandatory for graduation. I'm shocked that, over a decade later, many college freshmen have never seen a periodic table and can't do basic dimensional analysis. Scary shit.

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    How about we make sure that when they start school they know how to sit still and pay attention to simple directions. That's where it all starts.
• They are not quite the same thing - and computer science is a branch of mathematics that uses lots of mathematical material not taught in high school.

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    Sure. You could say something similar about Chemistry, but that doesn't mean we don't introduce kids to Chemistry in HS at a level that aligns with the math available to them.

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      Believe it or not, many American HS students never never taken a basic chem course, don't know the metric system, and can't do basic dimensional analysis; let alone know how to read a periodic table or understand basic life processes.

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    Computer Science covers Mathematics, Engineering, Linguistics, Philosophy, Psychology. Trying to pigeon hole it into Mathematics ignores the many cross disciplinary domains it touches.

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    I don't know if I'd be that restrictive in the definition. Computer Science encompasses more than just Math and many aspects are often less "science" than the name would imply. Programs are algorithms *and* logic *and* organization *and* (to some extent, to be honest) art -- or at least saying that creative thinking is sometimes (often?) required. Computing / networking systems and their administration are a whole additional things. [I mean, the name "awk" is so functionally descriptive.:-) ]

    I took a

  • Re:

    Actually, CS can be theoretical CS which is a branch of mathematics or practical CS which is an engineering science.

• Maybe it is just my definition of computer science. A lot of "computer science" courses I see are more along the lines of how to use a computer. Now, there are serious ones out there. Ones that introduce coding, networks, control structures and functions. All basic, but really how computers work. Others I see are more like using tools to design a web page. One step above using PowerPoint. If you make everyone take a course, they will be more like the later than the former.
• Computing Science includes information theory, complexity theory, digital algorithms, and digital system engineering. What is it that they are saying should be taught?

  • Re: Remember that CS is not "programming"

    Most of those you don't touch in university until 2nd or 3rd year. Let's push it on high school sophomores!

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      Yes, agreed these are advanced things. My point though is that the people who are pushing for "computer science" education are uninformed: they think that computer science = programming, but they are two very different things as you know.

      Given how fast things change in tech, I have to wonder, will programming as we know it be obsolete in ten years? If we teach it in high school, are we teaching something that will inevitably become obsolete? Not sure.

      • Re: Remember that CS is not "programming"

        Depends on what you code for, I suppose, but just about anything I can think of would benefit from an elementary course of, "here's what memory is, here's how numbered memory locations work, here's how named variables work, etc" which is roughly how they taught coding back in the punch card days.

        With me, it didn't start to stick even a little until high school and graphing calculators, but I'm glad it was presented that way when I had to take a real life coding class first year for my electrical engineering

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    CS does include the study of programming languages though as a major tool and that entails some basic skills with them. It does not entail turning CS graduates into proficient programmers though.

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    It won't even be real computer science. It will be a high school level overview. Let's not get our panties in a bunch.

• Why? For the same reason I shouldn't have to learn how to read or write legal code in high school. Computer Science is a specialized skill that most minds aren't good at.

  On the other hand, keeping computer literacy courses up-to-date with the fast changing times will be a continuing challenge. Basic security concepts, recognizing scams, avoiding risk, and good credential management (passwords need to die) are very important skills to have living in an online world.

  A true Computer Science requirement w

  • Re:

    The world would absolutely be a better place if more people knew how to do both of those things. Also, the world would be a better place if more people understood poetry or could play music.

    It's not a question of whether learning computer science is good for high school students. It is good, 100%. The only question is whether it's worth displacing other topics in favor of computer science. Students don't have infinite time.

    It's a tradeoff.

• Even among the "educated" classes, very few people have a decent understanding of how to use a computer.

  They can mash a few keys, and even open a couple of programs, but it's getting harder and harder to find people who can use a computer to even a "driver's license" level of competence.

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    And even less about how computers (and networks) actually work.

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      And yet for some reason we're to believe the computer illiterate masses really have a viable need or desire for CS classes? You could cripple a generation by throwing setup.exe at them. The app store GET button replaced all that "nerdy" shit a generation ago.

      Simple answer for CS. For those that are actually interested, have at it as an elective, available everywhere. For the other 90% of students, you're wasting their illiterate time. They have about as much desire to learn CS or code as they do Latin

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    People shouldn't need to understand how to use a computer. That is a relic of nerds and thick glasses typing in a console in the late 80s / early 90s. A computer should just work and be intuitive. And for the most part they are. My own aunt has enough trouble microwaving her food (to say nothing of actually setting the clock on the damn thing which has flashed 12:00 for the past decade), but has no problem writing word documents, sending emails or browsing the internet.

    Even setting up a computer the first t

    • Re:

      People who grew up during the iPad era often don't know where their data is located, how to manage files, and how to upload data to even a Web based application. Their idea of a "screenshot" can be "take a picture of the iPad screen with my phone." Modern computing-as-a-prison means that users often don't know anything other than how to use a computer as a media consumption device. Rude awakening coming in college or in their first job.

• by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Sunday December 04, 2022 @05:10PM (#63102320)

  This was like my requirement to have two years of a foreign language to graduate high school, of which I took three because the first year didn't count.

  Yes, you read that right. I was required to take two years of a foreign language but had to take three because the first did not count? Why you ask? Because I was in an accelerated program which meant the year I took in 9th grade didn't count toward my high school requirement.

  My two choices were latin and french so I took french and passed (somehow). Can I speak the language? If you mean can I pick out a word here and there, oui.

  This reminds me when I went to get my second bachelor's degree and was told I was required to take a programming course even though I had taken programming courses years before. I was able to whittle it down to one course from the orignal two. And no, I didn't pass it because I didn't do the semester project. I was there for project management, not writing code.

  And before anyone says anything about needing to understand coding, the same logic could be said for people going into programming to take a course in how to assemble a PC.

  So no, fuck this shit about being required to take a course in anything other than those for a broad educational background. If someone wants to go into programming then they should be able to substitute a class for a programming course as was originally proposed. Requiring people to take irrelevant course only turns them off and more importantly will impact their grades which will in turn affect what college they might be able to get into.

  Considering the dearth of knowledge people have about basics such as reading, writing, and arithmetic, time could better be spent on those subjects.

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    That is perhaps not a good example. Every programmer I know can build his own computer, either from new parts ordered online, from parts provided to him, or from spare parts he already has in his home from previous computers he's replaced. It tends to happen organically.

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      Fine. Every programmer needs to take a course in help desk support. That was what I was originally going to write, but changed it to assembling a PC.

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    I'd argue that the basics of coding contribute to a broad educational background. Back in the 80s, our high school got a bunch of computers in. And luckily we had a good math teacher who taught the course. Some kids had a computer at home, and some of them knew how to code somewhat, but the teacher focused on a lot of related aspects: breaking down problems, formulating an algorithm to solve them, translating that into working code, troubleshooting, and verifying the work. Most of us improved noticably

  • broad educational background = higher loans

    we need to look for ways to make collage / other learning take less time and cost less

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    I'll bet that it will be easier for your to pick up again if you live in a place where it's commonly spoken for a few months. It's never really lost, only... dormant.

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    I was in the same position except that I took Japanese, yes including the year which didn't count. Was it a waste? I learnt more about English language and language structures than was ever part of a normal English curriculum (which is too focused on naval gazing over Shakespeare to teach people what a damn past-participle was). Absolute waste of time.

    Oh except the advanced part of the course boosted my understanding dramatically for the subjects when they did count and gave me a massive uplift in my overal

• There is interest in CS, but the fact that any CS job will be done by someone with an H-1B, if the job isn't completely offshored makes it not worth it. Why bother going into lifelong debt into a field that you have to fight for scraps?

  Instead, best thing for people interested in CS is to go law. There is no such thing as an unemployed lawyer, and a J. D. + Bar membership is a meal ticket for life. No, one may not work for Dewey, Cheatham, & Howe... but you can definitely earn that Audi or BMW you ha

  • Re:

    That's why it's probably better to focus on analysis and understanding and documenting the domain and their requirements. Given clear specifications, raw coding can be done in Timbuktu etc. for $3/hr. Language barriers and face-to-face "office time" will be a citizen's only real advantage.

• Let's start with what I mean by Hamiltonian mechanics. I mean exactly the formulation of classical mechanics formulated by Lagrange, Hamilton, Noether, Pioncare, and the rest during the 19th and early 20th centuries. With abstract algebra of linear operators, Lie derivatives, and all.

  And while I'm at it, I'll also add the mathematical details of the Schroedinger wave functions and the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics to the list of things that one should not have to demonstrate mastery of in o

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    Exactly. Well said.

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    I would like to see some level of math, chemistry, biology, and physics. They don't have to be proficient, but they should be able to do dimensional analysis, understand the fundamental processes of life on a topical level, understand how electricity and mechanical systems work, etc. Without an understanding of how the world works, it's impossible to make informed choices about (say) an HVAC system in your home, or whether the energy policy of a given person running for office is a good idea.

• by MrKaos ( 858439 ) on Sunday December 04, 2022 @05:28PM (#63102366) Journal

  I can't imagine forcing someone into coding. It's intense enough when you *like* doing it, it would be a nightmare if it wasn't your thing.

• ... to deskill CS to lower wages, let's be honest.

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    Yep, the whole point of this CS-everywhere drive is to lower industry pay. We have lots and lots of qualified computer scientists, but not a whole lot who are willing to accept low pay. There are lots and lots of open positions, but very few employers willing to pay appropriately.

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      Hey, what's special about CS people? We have way too many retail and food service workers too, so their wages have been driven down. Why don't we stop people from going into retail work so that retail workers can get paid six figures too? Would you be in favor of that? Just make every kind of worker super expensive. What could go wrong?

    • Re:

      Did requiring a foreign language in high school somehow reduce the salaries of embassy translators across the world?

      Calling that high school CS "education" a threat to industry pay, is akin to the Michelin-star chef being threatened by Easy Bake ovens going viral as this years hottest holiday gift.

      Give me a fucking break.

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    If you're implying that a highschooler will graduate with the skills of a CS, then frankly CS is being massively overpaid.

    In other news JP Morgan wants to deskill accountants by teaching pre-schoolers to count using their fingers. Oh the humanity!

• such as logic, set theory, discrete mathematics, flow-charting, etc. Whether it's called "computer science" or something else doesn't matter much. Jumping into code face first may not be the best use of time.

• No, in high school, CS (he theory and practice of software development) is just a "shop" class, a vocational class, not a core class.
  
  Like a shop class it's perfectly fine to encourage students to take a class to see if they have an interest in it. If they have interest or curiosity, provide a series of CS classes. But don't force it on the uninterested.
  
  That said, computer literacy is something completely different than CS. A computer literacy class or two should be required. a computer is a tool peopl

  • Re: No, CS is just a shop class, not a core class

    We had typing class in middle school in the mid 90s. There were rows and rows of by then 15 yo IBMs with those lovely keyboards running WordPerfect 5 in text only mode.

    In the early 90s, computer class consisted of screwing around with Oregon Trail on Apple 2e's.

    Pennsylvania was all wired up for the information super highway in the schools back in the day.

• So... you don't want children to do homework, you don't want children to be taught algebra, you don't want......but you want them to learn CS? Seriously?

  I mean, we can teach children LaTeX to do math homework and we could kill two birds with a single shot, we can teach children algorithms so they can program and optimize routines (using a B-tree to optimize their spare time), etc.

  But that would mean they have do it at home...

• by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Sunday December 04, 2022 @06:03PM (#63102456)

  CS is a specialist skill, there is no sane reason to require it in general. Same goes for programming.

• Students should leave HS able to create mail merges, simple spreadsheets, find files on the network, as well as be armed to know what phishing and other scams look like. They should be able to recognize if their bank's web portal is compromised, as well as know what the permissions on their phones mean.

  Intro computer science? It should be available for anyone who wants to take it, but no student should be forced to do so.

  Just to be controversial; I also think HS should teach kids basic home economics up t

• If ANY new requirements should be added to High School graduation, it's basic law.

  By the time a student has graduated High School, he/she is required to obey the laws on the books - which they weren't born knowing, and which are written in a technical jargon, ditto. They can be fined, jailed, or even executed for failing to follow these rules. Ignorance of them is no excuse. So they should be able to understand them and have been notified of what they are.

  I'd also like to see, in addition to the jury of

• What does need to be required, however, is personal finances and how to handle money, nutrition and how to stay somewhat healthy.

• There should be a general computer literacy requirement. You should need to know how to properly use a word processor, spreadsheet, and basics on how computers and the internet work. You could throw a *very* basic coding unit in there so you know the fundamentals, but that should be it.

  Nearly all of my son's course work in grade school is done on a tablet. He knows how to use a word processor and spreadsheet but, having never taken a formal class in either, has a *basic* understanding of how to use them. I

• One can live a happy life without knowledge of CS possibly happier than with it TBH.
  So why put barriers in the way of people who do not need it in order to be productive and happy citizens?
  
  This seems to me to be an arrogant overreach, perhaps if philosophy was taught in high school rather than CS this board of experts would understand why.

• People are getting taught too many complex subjects, and that's driving the wages of professional work down. It's all a conspiracy. Education itself should just be very basic, if at all. Just keep everyone stupid so that we can get paid.

• Look, I know YOU think CS is important.
  Russian history majors think Russian History is important.
  Shop teachers think shop is important.
  Meteorologists believe theirs is the most important field.

  And we used to think humanity was the center of the universe. Then we grew out of that silliness.

• Consider if it were to be made mandatory. The curriculum would be decided by committees, and would lag years behind. There is need to get everybody understanding computers, coding, and generally how stuff works. But how is the question.

• Most people don't need Computer Science knowledge, much like they don't need Calculus or more than introductory Physics, Chemistry and Biology. There should be a very basic introductory class, 1 semester at most, teaching the basics of what an algorithm is, what a program is, how to write basic scripts like you'd use to automate putting headings on documents or calculations in a spreadsheet. From there the biggest need isn't CompSci, it's what used to be called "business machines": teaching how to use the s

• How about we focus on computer literacy. As in, knowing how to actually use a computer including basic troubleshooting? And while we're at it, focus back on basic literacy and numeracy.

• Selling products to schools is big business. This could easily create a new multi billion dollar industry selling CS products: professional development for teachers, new cert exam fees, computers, software packages, textbooks, etc. This isn't about students or churning out coders to drive down wages. It's about selling products.