The secret to succeeding in product - Ronke Majekodunmi - Mind the Product

What is the secret to succeeding in the product management craft? In this podcast episode, we were joined by Enterprising Senior Product Manager, Ronke Majekodunmi to discuss how building relationships are a key asset to developing your product career, and how to master the art of developing alliances.

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Episode transcript

Randy Silver: 0:00

Hey Lily, what would you say to your younger self? You know, the one who’s barely even a product manager?

Lily Smith: 0:08

Ooh, great question. I’d probably say, when some guy called Randy asked me if you want to do a podcast, definitely say yes. Because you will learn so much and meet some awesome people.

Randy Silver: 0:20

I’m really glad you did say yes. Because, you know, can you imagine me doing this solo? Somewhere on my hard drive, there’s a recording of me with a cheesy American DJ voice saying, Hey, welcome to the minimum viable Bob gas and that, that that’s just bad. I probably also tell myself to learn about product management earlier. I mean, I spent way too many years as an interactive producer and kind of just blindly stumbling about us instead of using the techniques I’ve learned since then.

Lily Smith: 0:54

Well, tonight, we have some great advice for any PMS from Ranchi, medica de mi, Senior Product Manager at PayPal, she teaches product management, and is used to giving advice and tips to budding product managers and we were lucky enough to gain her as an ally.

Randy Silver: 1:10

I see what you did there. Wrong. You’re also talk to us about the importance of finding allies and building relationships. So let’s let’s get right into that

Lily Smith: 1:26

the product experience is brought to you by mind the product.

Randy Silver: 1:30

Every week, we talk to the best product people from around the globe about how we can improve our practice and build products that people love.

Lily Smith: 1:37

Because it mind the product.com to catch up on past episodes and to discover an extensive library of great content and videos,

Randy Silver: 1:45

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Lily Smith: 1:58

minded products also offers free product tank meetups in more than 200 cities. And there’s probably one near you.

Randy Silver: 2:08

Rocky, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast this week.

Ronke Majekodunmi: 2:12

Thank you for having me. I’m super excited.

Randy Silver: 2:14

Tell us a little bit about yourself. For anyone who doesn’t already know, you know, you’ve been doing lots of writing and talks lately. But what are you up to these days? And how did you get into product in the first place?

Ronke Majekodunmi: 2:25

Oh, great question. So let me start with how I got into product. So I actually didn’t know I was in product. As most people who sort of fall into it. I started out working as a technical support rep for a small company in Albany, New York, I was back then back then forms where you would literally print out forms and take it to the bankruptcy court to file a bankruptcy to help save the client’s house or stop wage garnishment. So I would literally would be helping bankruptcy attorneys configure their printer driver, right, or installing the latest update or going to a bankruptcy court website like California central to go figure out this new form and how quickly can I help help them, you know, get into the system and so forth? started out doing that. And then like the were the organisation that I worked for, hired a bunch of new engineers. And so they needed Okay, number one, how does this product work? Number two, what are the top five problems? Because D didn’t have a product manager? So we’re top five problems in order, by the way, can you walk us through, you know, so it’s kind of started out as that and I and they would come to me as a subject matter expert. And then eventually there was a role available as a content editor with talking just literally recreating those bankruptcy forms. And I applied for it, I got it, I started to work with an actual product manager on the product. And she would I mean, we started off with me getting to know her and her getting to know me and trust, you need to go get the right forms, do the forms and insured with zero. So I’m talking creating the forms in Crystal Reports, by the way, and then creating the dating and to form exactly right creating the data entry form in Microsoft Access is in writing SQL queries. And then eventually, she trusted me now to just go do it on my own, initially review it. And then she left and then I applied for her role. And that is how I became a product manager. And I worked for Lexus for a while. And then I decided I was tired of that. And I decided to move into what we call a web producer role, where I was helping Alexis built ecommerce websites for their website that lasted maybe six months, because there was a company in Dayton, Ohio that wanted to build a SaaS platform for bankruptcy filing software, again for bankruptcy attorneys, but I wanted to build the first of its kind of SAS platform. So I went to go do that. And while I was doing that, we were about to launch If we were going to pilot it in a certain state in a couple of states, the company the private equity company, that owned company bought the largest bankruptcy filing provider in the market, a small company called best case in Evanston, Illinois, their CEO became a combined CEO. And by the way, I always tell younger product managers this, always be nice to people. Very now, who’s going to be your boss. That’s why my competitor, Alexis became my boss. So she offered me an opportunity to go to Chicago to help manage her software. And so I did, I got to Chicago, it gave me a chance to kind of slow down a little bit, you know, because their culture was more of a family, everybody had kids, so they had to leave at a certain time to go take care of their family. So it kind of gave me a time to kind of slow down take care of myself. While I was there, she left. And then I then left and went to work for a company called backstop solutions. They make CRMs SAS platform CRS available for institutional investors front of funds private equity, I went into the work on the investor portal, which is what the investor themselves regarding to to see how the funds are performing, or to see if there’s any other products that they want to invest in. So I wanted to go do that. While I was there, I fell madly in love with my boyfriend. He’s from Chicago, where he lives in the Bay Area. And pretty much the conversation when something like this, so it just works out. I’m not moving back here, because so you’re gonna have to move. So I moved, I moved here to the Bay Area, came to work for PayPal, where a PayPal I help large enterprise merchants manage and grow their business. And that’s what I’ve been up to. That’s how I started off as a product manager.

Randy Silver: 6:55

Fantastic. And you know, I think Albany’s this secret sleight of really unknown powerhouse of product stuff. Because I spent a few years there, you were there. And actually Ken Norton did a little bit at a time at RPI. I think he got a master’s there. Oh, look at that. Everyone talks about San Francisco, but it’s really Albany.

Ronke Majekodunmi: 7:18

Oh, well. Okay, so you have to tell your audience right. So I went to college in Albany. And so did you. So they’re gonna be wondering why the butt? Yes, no, you’re right. It’s funny, I didn’t even know what a product manager was back then. If I had known, I think I would have probably changed my degree or something focused on that, or at least in marketing, right? Because that’s the other thing is, as product manager, back then I just saw that marketing, a really suck at marketing myself. I mean, think about it, even your introduction, right? Is marketing is you telling your story, man, the things I would do differently if I had if I had known what I know now. So.

Randy Silver: 7:55

Okay, we want to talk to you about a bunch of the things that you would do differently. That’s the big theme of today. But one of the things you mentioned earlier, I’d like to start with if that’s all right, you talked about being nice to everyone and how your competitor became your boss. Something else you’ve written about in the past, is of the importance of building alliances. And I think that’s a common theme, the common thread through that. So talk a little bit about that, if you don’t mind, why are alliances so important for product people? Sure,

Ronke Majekodunmi: 8:26

no problem. So first, I’m gonna mention, people always confuse alliances with mentors. My mentors, I’m so super lucky, right? I have four incredible women in my life who mentored me since college. And even when I didn’t think I needed it, they kind of dragged me along. And I’m grateful for that. I think your mentors are the people that you go to, right, you go to talk about different things and get their advice. Your allies are the people that you work with throughout the day. Doesn’t matter what organisation you move to, you’re going to have allies. The reason why allies are so important, and maybe it’s just and again, this is just my perspective is because you’re going to have you need somebody who can give it to you straight, right? Somebody who will look you in the eyes and say you’re screwing up, you could have done that better. Right? That presentation could have been way better. You were not prepared. How do I somebody who can help you fix that? For somebody who will hold your hand when you’re having a really rough days, right, and help you get through it? Your allies and why you need those alliances is because you need people who are going to be your champion, and be there for your success. And they will help you accomplish not just your professional goals, but your personal ambitions as well. That’s why it’s important because you need people who cannot do this alone.

Lily Smith: 9:45

So how do you when you’re working in various different teams, how do you kind of identify someone who can be an ally for you? Do you kind of specifically seek people out or do those relationships It’s naturally fun,

Ronke Majekodunmi: 10:01

I seek people out. Because if you think about it, people are busy, right? So the way I do that is whenever I started in your organisation, the first thing I did was make a list and make a list of not just make a list of who I who I need to work with, right? So in my organisation, and in organisations I’ve ever worked at there is risk, compliance, legal, right privacy and so forth. I make a list, who am I counterparts they’re trying to go talk to. But then what I also do is I make a list of my bosses, colleagues, who I need to go introduce myself to, and I’ll explain why in a minute. And then I also make a list of who else design team, who’s the design lead? Who’s my partner on the design side? Who’s their boss, content designers, the person doing the content on my, on my experiences? Who is that person? Who is their boss, research, who’s that person was my counterpart, who’s their boss, right, and so forth. And then I showed others to my boss, and I say, Hi, I’m gonna go meet all these people. Oh, and also customer service, by the way, you never forget that customer service lead. And I say, I’m gonna go meet all those people. Is there anybody I’ve left out? And don’t tell me if there’s anybody I left out. And then I scheduled a meeting with all of them. And I introduced myself, I call it the rocky tour. I show up and I’m like, Hi, I’m Rocky, I’m new. This is my new role. How can we work out? I know, I’m going to be working with you. I helped me understand how do you want to work together? And I asked all those questions. But the reason why I do that is because those folks have a historical context to my role that I don’t know, they knew who was there before, what that person did, well, would they didn’t do well, they know all the weaknesses and strengths of that person, and they can help me and shed some light and help me basically be successful in this new role. And then the other thing is, and never leave the room without doing two things. One is, what does success look like to you in this role? After 30 days, after 60 days, after 90 days? That’s one and two? Can I have a reoccurring meeting with you? Can I schedule a bi weekly now, that my boss’s colleagues why that’s important is because every leader has different leadership styles. And I want to learn their leadership styles. Every leader has their strengths and weaknesses, right. But I want to learn there. And the reason why it’s important for me to meet with my my boss’s colleagues is because guess what, when it comes to review time, who has a say in my review, they do, right? So if I already get to know them, and I’m having bi weekly or bimonthly, or even a monthly meeting with them, and they understand my professional and my personal ambitions, they can help me. Whenever presentation time comes with their leadership, they can go hey, ranky, our leader wants to know about this and you’re working on this project, can you come and speak to her. And guess what, I will jump at that opportunity, I will do the presentation way ahead of time. And I will show it to their leader before I show it to their leadership. And why that’s important is because when it comes to review time, and they have to pick between five people in you, and all your bosses colleagues are in a room with their bosses, their boss will remember you because you present it to them at a certain time. Right. So it’s easier case to meet you.

Randy Silver: 13:19

I’m curious when you’re putting that list, or that map of people together? Is there a formal process? Do you use? Do you do it with other people? Or is it just an activity that you’ve learned how to do on your own?

Ronke Majekodunmi: 13:31

I mean, doing this activity on my own for every job? I think it should be? I think there should be a process though. And the reason I think that Randy is because you have recent college grads that are coming into the product space now. Right? They don’t know all these tools that they don’t know about how important it is to have this alliances. And I think you should be formalised also, I think there should be formalised and having a coach should be formalised or a mentor should all be formalised it should be like part of the process when you’re first day going, you know, here’s your list of people you need to go work with. And by the way, you’re required to go meet with them and introduce yourself.

Randy Silver: 14:07

So one of our one of our previous guests, Emily Weber has done a book about a free book actually called the team onion, which is an exercise you do with your team about stakeholders and everyone and you know, who’s the closest who’s the furthest but you know, ever and different methods for how you communicate with them. It sounds like it might be something that would fit in really nicely with this practice.

Ronke Majekodunmi: 14:30

Oh, absolutely. And one thing I want to mention, by the way, the reason why I’m also meeting with the least of all the other team design content research is because I’m going to be working with their team. Right? And they usually the ones that are left out of the equation is think about it right? In most you know a lot of organisations, no one thinks about the content designer. No one thinks about the researcher until you need them right. And then design some people think design is just there to drop pictures. I actually don’t think so I think design I like every conversation that I have with customers and my colleagues internally to be driven by design, right, like designed to drive the conversation. So actually never first person I get to know. Right, and I get to know their leadership as well. I will give you an example, my design lead, gives it to me straight. Some people don’t like that. But I love that he does not mince his words, he will literally look me in the face and say you are screwing up? Or I don’t like that presentation? Or why didn’t you tell me you were doing this presentation, I could have partnered with you. That is the kind of person I want to work with.

Lily Smith: 15:39

So what I really like about the way that you’re describing these relationships, is that it sounds very, very kind of two way in the sense of, you’re both getting something out of it. But how do you introduce that when you’re first establishing the relationships with your, you know, with these allies, because they’re potentially quite busy senior people. So is there a way that you kind of open up that dialogue to say, you know, you can get something out of this too, because I’m going to be, I don’t know, Slyke, giving you information that you wouldn’t necessarily have or access or making sure that your team is successful by doing X, Y Zed of what’s the way that you’ve opened up that that two way dynamic in that in that ally relationship?

Ronke Majekodunmi: 16:31

So the stick my design lead, for instance, and my content lead, they have, they have a huge, huge say in what I’m building, right? So it’s important that they are. So I work in in a box. So what I mean by the boxes, there’s my designer, my tech lead, and myself, it’s the three box, some organisations call that triangle, I move with them. So if I go to talk to a customer, they are with me, right? If I go talk to legal privacy, they are with me, they never without me, I’m never without them. So what you start to do is almost kind of form like a mini culture, right? That we have these, you know, all three of us are working together and collaborating together to build the best products, but we move together, why their leadership is super important is because I’m going to be presenting my experiences to my leadership. You know, we have this forum, we represent our leadership every week, actually, every Tuesday. And as a product leader, I’m gonna get up there, and I’m gonna present they should not be sitting there for the first time. Right? They should have already known about it, that I’m working with our team. It is what the teams are working on. But also, I’m going to be they have so they have a stake in that relationship, right? Because, and I always think because I went designed to drive the conversation because I don’t want to miss anything. And I want to build the best minimum lovable product. So they have a stake in my success. I have a stake in their success. So it’s a win win there. And I have to do a lot of negotiating. Now with my boss’s boss, you’re right. They’re super, super busy. But I have to be the one to cultivate that relationship because they don’t need me, I need them. Right. So that means, you know, even if they’re busy, just asked him for coffee, you know, once a month. And believe it or not, I got lucky. In the organisation that I’ve worked at. It is part of everybody’s KPI to be to mentor. So I’ve been lucky, no one has said no to me that they will absolutely come along and want to have that coffee not bringing the wrong. It hasn’t always been positive. But I also don’t go away either. I’m very, very, very, very. I want to say, I want to say I don’t go away very easily. I don’t take no for an answer very easily either. I am very persistent. You know, you may tell me your business one, but I’ll come back another month later. You.

Randy Silver: 18:59

You make it sound easy. But I think we’ve all worked with people and we don’t need to name any names. But we’ve all worked with people who are, let’s say not so easy. Let’s have you been able to turn detractors or blockers into allies. How have you made that work?

Ronke Majekodunmi: 19:19

Well, listen, there’s one caveat I have. Okay, first of all, I want to say this. Nobody wakes up in the morning and says I’m going to make the one decision for my organisation. Nobody does that. Right. So it’s up to me as the product leader to figure out why they are saying no to me on a certain project. They must have concerns. What are those concerns? So I’ll give you an example. One of my favourite people in the world on the this is on the risk side of the house, right. So the kind of thing about risk what risk wants to do is prevent fraud. Right? And this happened many many years ago. different organisations. And the person was telling me no, I couldn’t build this particular thing. I wanted to build the feature I wanted to build for a customer, or for all our customers. And they told me no, in front of my colleagues and my cross functional partners. They told me no, and I tried to talk to them. And then I came back, and I said, Okay, meet me halfway here, I do something. So we’re talking past each other here, meet me halfway, what am I not understanding? And then you broke it down for me, are the social engineering that could happen, that I’m not thinking of as a product lever, right? You broke it down. So then I say, Okay, how about this, let me build this, and only give it to one customer. And you can monitor it. And they can only have two users that will have this permission, they’ll be able to use this feature. And I will go build all the other tools to make it safer, before we can release it into the wild. And he agreed. So you see what I mean? Think about that, right? He said no to me several times. But I kept going back, because I know his intentions were good, and not bad. Nobody wakes up and says I’m going to make all the wrong decisions. So I make it a point to need to go figure out what that is and meet that person halfway.

Lily Smith: 21:22

And do you find did you find that your relationship with that individual changed after that situation,

Ronke Majekodunmi: 21:30

or salutely is one of the best people and also till today, we don’t work together anymore. But on LinkedIn, he’s also the first to like all my post. Like all my posts, and I don’t even work with him anymore. But yeah, I mean, we became I think we got closer as working partners, I understood a little bit more his world. And you know what I did, I would actually have him present to my team to my scrum team, so that we understand his world a little bit more, as we were building tools that I was going to meet.

Randy Silver: 22:05

What mistakes do you see other people making in this space? Is anyone for example? Has anyone ever tried to make you an ally and failed at it?

Ronke Majekodunmi: 22:15

Oh, yeah. I mean, well, for starters, if you throw me under the bus in a meeting, I’m not gonna be I’m not going to want to be an ally, right? So, um, was it I’ve had situations where people throw me under the bus in a meeting. And the thing is, once you do that to a colleague, it’s hard to rectify it. Think about it, right? Especially if you do that in a meeting with your leadership. Right. And I have colleagues, I have one particular day, I have one colleague, who in particular, who I really thought was wicked smart, I thought great on this person is awesome. But this person continuously throws me under the bus and not just me, but other colleagues as well. So it’s kind of hard to have an ally, right? Because that trust is not there. Right. That’s the other thing too. I always tell the PMs that I mentor, you must cultivate that trust, right? So if you think about the example I just gave, right? That colleague of mine understood that I was not going to go around them to go build this feature, and release it into the wild. Right? Because we just had that relationship. They appreciate the fact that I kept coming back and talking to them trying to meet them halfway. Right versus me going and building it and just release it. Yeah. So trust is a key component. And at the end of the day, I always say this, we work with each other over eight hours a day, we see each other probably more than we see our family members, right? What does it hurt, to just be nice. And cultivate that trust, because you’re going to work with that person, you don’t know when they’re going to leave, you don’t know when you’re going to leave. And at the end of the day, you all have one thing in common, which is you want to build the best products for your customers. But it starts with trust.

Lily Smith: 24:07

So what are what are some of the lessons that you’ve learned in your career that you wish you’d known when you first started out? What are the kind of key takeaways that you’ve had throughout your professional career?

Ronke Majekodunmi: 24:23

Oh, so first of all, that’s a great question. So first of all, it doesn’t matter whether or not I’m correct. Doesn’t matter whether or not I’m right. Don’t be don’t be a jerk. Just don’t be a jerk. That’s one lesson. Second lesson. I have learned that I prefer prod led organisations versus engineering led organisations, prod led organisations I can be myself I can come to work and be my authentic self and focus on the customer because I can be customer focused. I can become from obsessed, whatever you want to call it, but your customer is always fresh. And if I work in prod Lead organisations, I’m able to really do my job there, right versus engineering lead. By the way, I just want to say for those listening, it’s not all engineering lead organisations, it’s just been my experience. So I just say that I just prefer that kind of an environment. Leader, you’re gonna say something.

Lily Smith: 25:17

Yeah. So wonky on that, how have you figured out a way to identify an engineering lead organisation? Before you go to work there? Because I think that’s one of the things that you don’t necessarily get an idea for what kind of organisation is before you start somewhere.

Ronke Majekodunmi: 25:39

I made those mistakes myself were missing. We don’t want to be Steve Jobs, right? So early in my career, I wanted to be a product Rockstar, I wanted to be the first pm to build a SaaS platform for bankruptcy attorneys. But what I didn’t do was I didn’t do my homework. Right? So now I do my homework, part of my interview process, not just any organisation, you go to right, think so the way I look at it is when I’m interviewing, I meant that I’m just interviewing or me, I’m interviewing them. Right. So my question is, with HR, I always got so about diversity and inclusion. Right? Super important, right? That’s important to me. And to I always ask about who makes the decisions? Is an engineering that makes the decisions or is a product that makes the decision, I ask all those questions. And then with the hiring manager, and following up and asking those questions, how will this work? Is it a collaboration, because listen, I don’t even want to I love organisations where it’s a collaboration, it’s not just product, also making the decision because here’s the thing, rivalry is that even as a product manager, I have blind spots, and I have biases. So I want a collaboration, I want a cross functional team that is diverse, right? Diverse in thought, diverse in gender, diverse in geography, diverse and lived experiences, diverse in background circumstances, because I’m building for an emerging global market, and they have a demographic that is changing every single day. And because they’re changing every single day, their needs are changing, I have to meet them where they are, how do I do that? I need a diverse organisation to do that right? Diverse cross functional team. So I’m always asking those questions. Who makes the decision? How is it made? Do you expect only product to make those decision if I invite my tech lead to a customer meeting? Easy, able to attend? can hear. And then the other thing I always do really, I always ask to me with my engineering counterpart. And I talked to them about my style, Hey, would you be willing to come to a meeting? And if you’re not able to, Can I record it? But I’d really prefer that you’re in the meeting. Oh, and by the way, I’m going to do something called A Day in the Life. And I’m going to bring a customer to go meet us and have lunch with us. Would you be able to attend? Are you okay? With all the Scrum teams attending that discussion? Those things are important. Because if I bring a customer that come for a day in the life, there are three things that happen. engineers get to meet their customer, the person who’s on the platform, they get to not only meet them, have lunch with them. Now you’ll make it personal, right? But you also get to understand why did they pick you? Out of all the competitors? He picked you? And why? And you get to understand who else in their organisation uses their product? What are the jobs to be done that they’re trying to do? What other tools are they using, but you understand how they use your product. Couple of things happen in our conversation. Engineers, when they go back to their desk, they become transformed. They are not the same people before that meeting, because they’re coming in the now they understand they see how people are using their product. But it inspires them and motivates them. And it aligns them with me. And my roadmap and my product strategy, they now understand why Walker’s roadmap looks like that. Right? For the customer. They are transformed as well. Because even meeting you, people building a product, and they are just as inspired as well. If an engineer does not want me to include the scrum team, in that kind of a discussion, I can I need to take a step back and figure out if this is the right organisation for me,

Randy Silver: 29:25

Rocky, it sounds like a lot of what you’re trying to do there is culture change and trying to make sure you’re in a in a culture that’s positive, and one that’s set up for for success. But it also sounds like and this is the lesson it’s took it taken me a long time to learn and I’ve made lots of mistakes with the best of intentions. People who are used to operating in a different way, say in an engineering lead culture can find that intimidating, they can find it threatening. So you start off this this bit by saying don’t be a jerk. You can go in with great intentions but someone else might think you’re being a jerk. So how do you know? If even you know that you’ve got the right intentions? And how do you know if you’re being a jerk? Even if you’re you’re trying to do it right?

Ronke Majekodunmi: 30:10

I ask a lot of questions. So to give an example, there was an organisation that I started working in. And the first thing I did, apart from me and my boss, I have a lunch with my tech lead every Wednesday, he and I just off to a point of having lunch together. And I asked him, I asked him, I said, Listen, I’m trying to figure this out, I’m new help me. And he actually said this to me, you’re ready, he suggested this to me. He goes, ask your team to have lunch with you every Wednesday, the engineering team, and I looked at him and I thought they will, it doesn’t hurt to try, he goes, that’s how you’ll get to know them, because they were all new when I was new. So I took his advice. And I scheduled a lunch at 12 Noon. And it became a tradition. And every day, every Wednesday at 12 o’clock, my whole entire engineering team content design, and we would all go outside and have lunch together. And we got to know each other, and we formed a community. And what that did was eliminate into their world, on a personal level, they understood me on a personal level. And that number one was to do that. It doesn’t even if they don’t agree with my decisions, they understand I have the best intention. Right? So honestly, it starts with number one, just be vulnerable, be vulnerable, and ask how do I do this? This organisation is new, the culture is new, I’m trying to simulate somebody, you know, help me how do I do this? And I’m always there ask that question, Mike, I don’t everything helped me understand this. And by the way, that discussion changed my life, because it led to my lunch with my team, which led to everyone’s they even know, I don’t even work with all those engineers anymore. Guess what? I still talk to them. So you have to reach out.

Lily Smith: 32:01

So you’ve mentioned before that you’ve worked in various different environments. And sometimes it’s not always been a great environment. What kind of advice would you give to people who are, you know, not feeling it right now who are kind of, you know, worrying about whether they’re doing a good job, and not really enjoying the product experience? I just put the name of the podcast in title. That was so well, intentional.

Ronke Majekodunmi: 32:37

So a couple of things. Let me see if I can, there’s different ways to answer that. So give me one woman. So okay, so I’ll say this, there is a concept that I strive for, which is running from and running to, am I and I always ask myself this question, am I running from my job? Because I’m uncomfortable? Because they’re stretching me and I don’t want to stretch that way. I want to learn new things. I don’t want to do this, or is it because it is truly bad? And and um, you know, it is really bad. And it’s a toxic working environment. Does that make sense? There’s like a difference. And I kind of go through those analysis in my head. Only the person going through we can decide if it’s a toxic environment and move out of it. I’ve been in those right, I’ve worked in toxic environment is sucks. So especially so with me, I had impostor syndrome. So you sort of feel like you kind of have to accept what’s being what you’re going through. But it took me a while to realise that No, I don’t have to do that. I don’t have to accept that. Those kinds of behaviour, that kind of culture. So you sort of have to figure that out first, right? I prefer to run to opportunities, I want to run to an opportunity, right versus run from. So that’s the thing is you sort of have to figure out is what I’m trying to get away from? Is it stretching me? And I just don’t want to stretch that way? Or is it really a toxic environment? Right? So I have to sort that out. And before you run to the next opportunity, because what happens is, whatever it is you’re running from, you’re going to find it and the next role, and what are you going to do run from that as well. So those are the kinds of analysis that I sort of do in my own way. And I do it with people who really know me, those four women that I mentioned, by the way, devo worked with me, I’ve worked for them before they became my mentor. So they often understand my weakness on my strengths, right? So if it’s something that I’m running from, they’re able to call me up on it right and go, you’re running from this right. So that’s one and again, those allies by the way, those allies leave your organisation they go to other organisations, but guess what, you have those alliances in same thing. There was one person in particular that I talked to you and he used to be my design lead and I talked to him at least twice a week, by the way, and he’ll like he gives it to me straight last Week, he literally said something to me. He was like, So what are you doing? What are you doing with this? You know, I’m always gives it to me straight. I’m gonna talk to him this afternoon about something and he’s gonna give it to me straight. So I hope I answered your question, but you sort of have to figure that out because you’re walking out walk. Does that make sense? You don’t want to walk in that walk? And you got to figure out? Is it time for me to go? Or is it just this things that I need to learn here? Even if I’m uncomfortable, right? Because, like, if I’m uncomfortable, is it because I don’t want to learn it? Or is it because it’s making me stretch? Because also the other thing I tell our younger PMS is your brain wants to take a shortcut, right? I always tell my scrum team this, I’ll bring once you take a shortcut. I’ll bring it like none of that. Let’s just go with assumptions. We don’t have to do all that testing. It’s up to us to challenge that assumption. Right. So you sort of have to do that exercise as well and go, am I running from am I running into

Lily Smith: 36:06

I love it. Brilliant. Monkey thank you so much. We’ve run out of time but it’s been so great talking to you and hearing about your experiences and your journey through Product Management. Thank you so much for sharing with us.

Ronke Majekodunmi: 36:20

Thank you for having me.

Lily Smith: 36:31

The product experience is the first and the best podcast from mine the product. Our hosts are me, Lily Smith, and me Randy silver. Louron Pratt is our producer and Luke Smith is our editor.

Randy Silver: 36:46

Our theme music is from humbard baseband pow that’s P AU. Thanks to Arnie killer who curates both product tank and MTP engage in Hamburg and who also plays bass in the band for letting us use their music. You can connect with your local product community via product tank, regular free meetups in over 200 cities worldwide.

Lily Smith: 37:07

If there’s not one near you, maybe you should think about starting one. To find out more go to mind the product.com forward slash product Thank you