How to Thrive as a Leader and Be Your Best Self

Transcript

Jeff Bullas

00:00:05 - 00:00:55

Hi, everyone and welcome to the Jeff Bullas show. Today I have with me, Toby Jenkins. Now Toby is the leadership coach Olympian from 2004. He was in the water polo team for Australia in Athens 2004 and he's an award winning entrepreneur and author. He's worked with Olympic medalists, investors, founders and CEOs and leaders individually in his teams. He loves helping leaders and their teams work with the pressure never becomes with important decisions, difficult conversations and ambitious opportunities. He helps them work towards their greatest impact and to be the person they want to be in the process, Toby has spoken to thousand people in live and broadcast audiences around the world, an organization such as Ernst and Young and the Australian Institute of Sport.

Welcome to the show, Toby. It's great to see your smiling face.

Toby Jenkins

00:00:55 - 00:01:00

Yeah, thanks, Jeff. Thanks very much for having me, mate. It's really good to connect again.

Jeff Bullas

00:01:00 - 00:01:13

Yeah. So I've known you now. I'd say must be close to 10+ years, I think.

Toby Jenkins

00:01:13 - 00:01:13

2008.

Jeff Bullas

00:01:14 - 00:01:30

Yeah, and I think the first time I met you in person was talking about Twitter, a small conference. You are at a conference. You're running in Sydney. So remember, because we're all excited by social media back then, weren't we?

Toby Jenkins

00:01:31 - 00:01:39

We were extremely. And the prospect and the power of it. What the change meant, right?

Jeff Bullas

00:01:40 - 00:02:47

Yeah. We have seen it play out and grow up and mature. And we've seen the good, bad and the ugly of social media to be displayed around the world over the last 15 years. And so I've always been the eternal optimist about social media, but I have had some, I suppose, the internal optimist has been a little tune back, I suppose, in terms of how we need to treat social media today so it won't go into that at the moment. It’s not what we're talking about today.

So you became an Olympian, which is pretty amazing for the Australian water polo team. So how did that happen? Like what was the inspiration? Say, I want to swim. I want to fight other people in the pool underwater, tear their babies off and just push the ball down. Look, it's a pretty tough sport, isn't it? Really?

Toby Jenkins

00:02:48 - 00:03:14

Yeah. I mean, I'd love to be done again, Jeff. Super physical game and yeah, I mean, yeah, it's got a, it comes with a reputation, right. Some of the very famous games like the Melbourne Olympics had Russia, Hungary, that ended up with blood in the pool and all that sort of stuff that has a bit of a bad rep. But I was always a gentleman, Jeff, just when I was playing.

Jeff Bullas

00:03:14 - 00:03:26

I know you. Just went fuss everyone else. And so how did you get into water polo? And then how did the Olympic dream unfold?

Toby Jenkins

00:03:27 - 00:05:47

Yeah. Look, it was a funny thing, it was just my sister's really, like I always loved to it. I had enjoyed that, but I don't think I was ever going to be a, I wasn't definitely wasn't going to be a great swimmer. But my sister is actually going to water polo. And as soon as I tried it, I realized that I just love ball sports and I just love the team environment as well, and I love the water so I was, like, a tri factor of the stuff that I loved. And so, yeah, pretty quickly I just realized that I was just really keen, so willing to do the work. It probably wasn't until 2000. I'm just trying to think, I'm sorry. It would have been ‘94 or ‘95 when I actually applied for, like, a state institute where I actually wrote down, you know, as part of my application, I'd like to play for Australia. And so that kicked off. How? Yeah, just how I sort of saw the path going forward and made some missed out on some teams, but made a regional team, missed out on a state team. But I was just so passionate about the game that I just kept trying, I guess. And yeah, then made it in Australian under 17 team, and that really opened the door. So, we're coast by a guy called this phone. Gardini, who ended up being the Sydney Olympic gold medal winning coach with the Australian women's team. He was an awesome coach and he was the one that then gave me the opportunity, really, or the introduction into the Australian Institute of Sport just out of high school. And so I did a year down there with the men's national team and then missed out on Sydney. But yeah, it was really passionate again, you know, like, just really connected and excited by what the Olympics may mean. And when Sydney was announced, obviously that, you know, immediately became the goal. But I was only 19. Maybe at the time, 20. And then, yeah, I pushed on post Sydney to be a part of the Athens team in 2004 and a couple of world championships and all that sort of stuff like that. It was a pretty amazing journey. Yeah.

Jeff Bullas

00:05:48 - 00:06:24

So what were some of the lessons from there? Because obviously, training was a big part of it. So you obviously have a lot of training. You would have had to be persistent. You need to be passionate. And passions and interesting air. Isn't it really in terms of what? What drives us as human beings? So what do you think? What do you think was driving you? Because obviously you were putting in the work and it's hard to put in the work unless you're really motivated. So what, what was driving you back then?

Toby Jenkins

00:06:26 - 00:10:30

It's kind of a question that I didn't really ask myself to be frank at that point. I just knew I wanted to go to Olympic Games, like that was kind of as simple as it was. In reflection, I would say that really to try to prove something to myself. I think that ultimately, like, yeah, I'm really real around that I'd say it was trying to prove that I was enough in one sense or another and was I, and like, the reflection as well as part of the Olympic journey was really that after, after 11 years of, you know, all of the work that goes into it and certainly by no means in the smooth part, as any journey to any kind of, Olympic experience or any other as well. Yeah, it just wasn't a smooth path. Ups and downs and lots of things that, you know, blindside you along the way but it sort of had this idea that it was sort of too important to let go. There are a couple of times when I very nearly did. And I'm pretty grateful to a couple of people along the way who then helped me reconnect to what, why it was important to me or, you know, to that experience. And so I did persist. But it was absolutely kind of by chance, I reckon, rather than by desire. And so I got to the Olympics, you know, it was, you know, the pressure cooker that you would imagine. And I actually had, you know, when the day I arrived, the day I left the Olympic Village, I actually had an upset tummy. And at the time I assumed that I was sick, that I'd eaten something or contracted something. From the day I left the village, it all stopped. Knows exactly. Yeah. Physiological response to stress and pressure. And yeah, it's as clear as that. And only in hindsight, Yeah, I was able to recognise that, but it's interesting. Also on the back of the Olympic experience, I reckon I had about three weeks of contentment, and then I just nearly dismissed it to be frank, like, moved on to Bluewire Media, which was the next chapter for me where you and I met, you know, around the digital marketing stuff. And yeah, I just sort of yeah, pushed left a little bit of the Olympian over in Greece. To be honest, I think, and certainly when I came back felt like it was all about the sharing, the highs and an expectation to really share the highlight reel rather than the reality of that experience. And it's something that has taken years to kind of own the story. And I know you know, you and I talk about stories a lot, how we write them and articulate them and own them and take the lessons from them but yeah, that was that again decades later to a decade later. Probably truly own the fact that I've been to Olympic Games and come to appreciate it even, so yeah, it's an interesting, interesting reflection on that period, but incredibly grateful. And I guess the other thing for me, just as well as you know, along that journey, there are plenty of people who put in the work, right, who had the passion, assistant and you know the privilege. Really, from my standpoint, you know, looking back on it is just that I was one of the fortunate ones that gets the accolades, as well as the experience. And so from my standpoint, there's a responsibility and to share the stories from it and the lessons learned and that sort of stuff. And that's really what I'm passionate about now.

Jeff Bullas

00:10:31 - 00:10:38

Yeah. So quite often we get tied up in reaching the destination rather enjoying the journey.

Toby Jenkins

00:10:39 - 00:10:39

Yeah.

Jeff Bullas

00:10:39 - 00:10:45

Did you enjoy the journey as an Olympian? Training Olympian?

Toby Jenkins

00:10:46 - 00:11:51

100%. Yeah. I mean, I really, every day was a new challenge, right, and I really enjoyed moments of it the moment as I said, they were really tough. And you learn some pretty hard things, I guess, along the way. And I guess that's what, yeah, what has been the reflection since is like, what does a crucible sort of situation like that teach you? And ultimately, I think where the trend that I see myself, at least anyway is it burns away. The stuff that doesn't serve you and helps you. Yeah. Continue to develop that ongoing process of who am I and who I want to be. And which of these influences and role models and coaches and whatever along that journey with great ones, which one can I learn how not to be? So, yeah, that stuff. I think it's sort of the core of the lessons for me.

Jeff Bullas

00:11:52 - 00:12:17

So, yeah, you moved on from being an Olympian. You've had 11 years of training. You loved the journey. You've gone to the Olympics. So that's in the bank. You reflect on it. You said three weeks later, you'd sort of contentment after you've done the Olympics. Then you moved into being an entrepreneur. Is that correct?

Toby Jenkins

00:12:18 - 00:12:18

Yeah.

Jeff Bullas

00:12:18 - 00:12:33

So what, how did that happen? Was it a conversation made over a beer?

Toby Jenkins

00:12:33 - 00:13:57

It wasn't much more complicated than that. It was something that all again, probably something I've been interested in. And I'd done uni and was interested in business while I was training as well. So while I was training, I, you know, commerce degree, much of which did not apply into the entrepreneurial journey, but just an interesting that and finance. And when I came home from Athens, I was like, okay, well, what's going to fill this void right, where I'm gonna put my time and energy and focus and drive and all that stuff and yeah. So when I actually started Bluewire Media with Adam Franklin who you know well as well, we essentially, I just figured it was, you know, business is a skill like any other. So either we can go pay for someone to teach us how to do it, or we can do it. Here we go. Yeah. So, you know, we were lucky to have supportive parents who are lucky to get some government grants in those early days at least be paid the dole to start a new scheme or start a new business. And, yeah, and pretty early on that journey, we had someone write us a check and we'll hook.

Jeff Bullas

00:13:58 - 00:14:24

So the inspiration for the idea, I'm always fascinated by where does the business idea come from? Sometimes it's experiencing a certain problem that you might have working within a corporation or as an individual, so the idea to start Bluewire Media with Adam. Where did the idea come from?

Toby Jenkins

00:14:26 - 00:16:05

So we had, there are four of us kind of having these talks initially. And there was another guy, Tom, who started out with us in the end as well. He stuck around, but then ended up going to a position. A couple of months in, but we had, there was, one idea was bungee trampoline in Brisbane. Another idea was queen skin wine and reselling relabeling that. Another idea was promo pens and merch, branded promotions and merchandise. And then the other idea is just building websites. And ultimately, I think the other required capital. This one didn't. So we went and tried to sell our first website and yeah, and we were able to. So it was, yeah, that is primarily because we didn't need money. We had a laptop I could borrow from, you know, that my sister had been using in the family so we could use that. But yeah, that was 2005. We sort of, and actually at the very beginning, and I finally registered the name and took off for a week. So I think trip down the East Coast because we figured that's what business owners did. It had freedom of time. So that's also definitely been the same throughout. You know that flexibility and same time as the currency and experiencing the currency to, you know, not just the money.

Jeff Bullas

00:16:06 - 00:16:39

And I think a lot of people have been reevaluating that over the last few years, haven't they? In terms of what's important? And the most scarce commodity we have as humans as we've got a set time on this planet. So time is our ultimate resource. That is just literally the clock's running. And when we're younger, we think we've got infinite time. And you start to realize that as you get older, that maybe not.

Toby Jenkins

00:16:40 - 00:16:42

Indeed, yeah.

Jeff Bullas

00:16:42 - 00:17:35

So obviously, on the journey with Adam and Bluewire Media, you, then I think, went to Europe with the family, and I think, is that where you reassess what you're doing, like the Bluewire Media started struck out on your own in terms of the leadership coaching spaces. Is that where that sort of came from? As I remember, we had a conversation when you were in Europe a few years ago. And, you started talking about this then to me. So today you've pivoted, sort of at a Bluewire Media to doing your own thing, and that's very much leadership coaching and helping people thrive in our world. So this is very much values driven, isn't it? Is that correct?

Toby Jenkins

00:17:35 - 00:17:37

Yeah. Yeah, very much so.

Jeff Bullas

00:17:38 - 00:18:02

So could you tell us how that idea came into focus as you sort of transitioned into the next part of your journey, which is what you're doing today and you're running that from your blog, tobyajenkins.com. So tell us a little bit about that idea and how that's evolved since you started.

Toby Jenkins

00:18:03 - 00:26:34

Yeah. So I think what happened was with Bluewire, the part that I loved was really felt most connected to is how can I help? Yeah, if I think of my life, you know, working career anyway, in chapters and considering water polo. One of those, it was really a water polo, is very much around. How could I? How good could I be? How could I have been my best? So whether it was strategy tactics, strength conditioning, mental nutrition, whatever across all the gametes, how could I be my best? And interestingly, in a team environment, it's really how do you develop the capacity of the individuals within that team to then contribute to a team, whereas I think one of the misconceptions that or perceptions of team sports that doesn't get translated to the business world particularly well, is that it's all about the team. And actually, you know, it doesn't matter what your team dynamics are, you know, gets a grade here in Brisbane. Rugby are never going to beat the All Blacks, right? Just purely on individual capacity. It doesn't matter how good their team dynamics are. And you know when when we were training, we you know, yes, we were training together. But 90% of that time is really around developing the individual's capacity to contribute to the team. And then so, yeah, when I got the Bluewire or, you know, once we started blue, I was really fascinated by what that looks like and really the team component and ran down that rabbit hole of the leadership. You know, books and Jim Collins and Liz Wiseman and Patrick Lencioni on values and all this other stuff around the organization of the team and the company. And I think, you know, I'd like to say we did it really well, actually, you know, we executed everything across the employee experience and right, right through, you know, from how we onboarded people and how we continue to have coaching conversations and all that stuff. I love that work.

Bluewire then changed business models in 2013. And as such, really, what I found was, I was looking for, and sorry, so the team really got pushed into distributed right in the world of, you know, the Odesk, you know, freelance sites, Upwork or whatever it is. Now you know all of these open up the capacity to, you know, tap into special skill sets from all over the world, as opposed to the traditional model of business of everyone being in the same room in Brisbane, which is how it started. So we did that, and but it also kind of meant that, and I didn't even know it at the time. But it meant that I admit that I was really passionate about was no longer there. And so we spent a couple of years trying to figure out how, where I sat as an I'm. And ultimately it was actually my, in 2016, I had my second daughter. She had silent reflux. I've had a shoulder operation from giant ball for 20 years and part of the good and that was pretty painful. So I was sleeping upright on the couch and then my father-in-law was in hospital with leukemia and my own father died from a brain tumor. And I remember, you know, having conversations with you around some of this at this time too, Jeff, and really appreciating your council around it in perspective. But one of the things that happens with that and I think to your point earlier around, you know, and we start to appreciate mortality, was that in that circumstance, you know, my father had been, his father had been 98 when he died, and ultimately it had been. But Dad had died at 66. So suddenly it was wow, you know, my clock. I might be two thirds of the way there. Not only am I yeah, yeah. So that's centre mortality really driven home and then that held up the mirror. And what am I doing? Why am I doing it? You know what's important here and sitting in that really uncomfortable space and enormously frustrated and, you know, kind of caught one day I found myself sort of cry on the, as we drove up from the Gold Coast of Brisbane on a commute for a client, it was just like, man, this is like, it's got to be some sort of better way here. And at the time, I didn't even realize there was work necessarily. It was kind of across everything. And about that same time, I reconnected with an old mate of mine, Jonah Oliver, performance psychologist. And he introduced me to this stuff, a framework essentially called ACT, which is acceptance and commitment training or therapy depending if you're a psychologist, I'm definitely not. But ACT is a really interesting framework because it's around acceptance, which is, yeah, you know, millennia old tradition, really, in terms of, you know, Buddhism and Taoism and all sorts of different spirituality practices, there's a mindfulness of being present. And then there's a do what matters part and all of the evidence based in the last 30 years has exploded around the efficacy of, you know, if you were to picture a triangle and in the bottom left of that triangle, you write acceptance at the top of the triangle. You've got mindfulness in the bottom right of the triangle. You've got to do what matters. So bottom left acceptance, top mindfulness, bottom right do what matters. Interestingly, it really ties together for me. The stuff that I'm really passionate about, which is the spiritual practices, philosophy, performance, mindfulness, but in a really evidence based way. So the Western science is absolutely validating these millennia old traditions and that's the bit that really let me up.

And Joan and I actually started a business a couple of years ago in an attempt to build a digital product. In the course of the three years we spent together and only recently resigned from that as we, it became more and more challenging to really articulate what that product might look like. A software product. And so, yeah, I decided to step away from that and hang out, essentially hang out my shingle and a coach and leadership coach and stuff. But I still love the core of the work because it definitely helps people navigate uncertainty, transitions, pressure, stress. It's not about reducing that stuff. It's actually about changing the relationship to it, which is, which I find absolutely plays out in the real world is that how do we help people connect to what's important to them? And if I think about that transition, that out of Bluewire into this kind of world, it was really this recognition in myself that I love performance. I love helping people be the best that they can be. And how can I help in an evidence based way people work with stress and pressure on the back of, you know, my lived experience as well with the Olympics and in business and all that stuff? Yeah, so it's been an exciting transition, I guess, in that instance that transition was very much around. China had shown me this stuff in order for me to really help myself scratch my own itch, which was how do I get clarity here when I'm sitting in this absolute stew of uncertainty and frustration and all the other tough stuff that everybody shows up in life? And I found that little triangle just acceptance, mindfulness and do what matters. It's just a brilliant tool to understand what I was going through and then therefore being keen to help others explore that tied back to bunch of interest in mind in the long term, which is philosophy and various religions and wisdom generally, you know.

Jeff Bullas

00:26:35 - 00:27:06

Yeah, it's fascinating. Sometimes we'll arrive to actually write down some ancient wisdom. And then what does science say about that, and tying the two together is actually quite interesting. And sometimes it's almost impossible. Sometimes it is possible to actually connect those dots, but I think trying to create digital products out of things that come from the soul is certainly a challenge, which he obviously struck.

Toby Jenkins

00:27:07 - 00:27:10

It's totally. Yeah.

Jeff Bullas

00:27:10 - 00:27:20

So you mentioned the ACT framework. Was that acceptance, commitment, training? Is that another framework, that was another framework as well, when you mentioned it right at the beginning.

Toby Jenkins

00:27:21 - 00:28:58

Yeah. So that is the framework that I feel is really helpful. And it has a bunch of sort of tools that within it, that, you know, it's an open source framework, really supported by a large community of psychologists and coaches and trainers and stuff around the world. But you're definitely helping people work with stress and pressure rather than trying to reduce it. And I think it is especially applicable. You know, when I see you're alluding to, you know, when you see what's happened in the last few years around baseline anxiety or change or, you know what Covid has done, you know. And then there will be the next thing right like changes is the universal confident, you know, some of those cliches come in, but it's how do you, how do you navigate that? How do you create an internal anchor rather than external anchor? And really, when I think about my own sort of tough period five years ago, I think about it in the context of I was looking everywhere outside of me for solutions. You know, whether that was motivational tapes, books, yeah. Talking to others were really the only answer that's going to stick when he is looking in the mirror and really trying to hold that. Hold that and try to bring some definition to that. So, yeah, it's challenging for sure in the last place to look right.

Jeff Bullas

00:28:59 - 00:29:10

Yeah, well, I have heard the term before. Success is an inside job but we still get looking at for everywhere else, though, don't we?

Toby Jenkins

00:29:11 - 00:29:52

Yeah. And the measurement of external, right. Like, I think that's, you know, talking to that downside, perhaps the social media is that, you know, constant comparison, you know, amazing tool for publishing and expression and self expression stuff. But the downside of that is the constant comparison points and yeah, and the challenge there and seeing other people's highlight. Really, No one shares their bad days or very few people share their bad days. So it's just making sure to keep in mind. What's my own assessment of what that looks like for me versus.

Jeff Bullas

00:29:52 - 00:30:17

Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, I've certainly minimized how much a direction I have with social media because I know how I feel. When I look at, and it's a great phrase that a friend of mine shared with me about three years ago, she said, social media is about we judge our insides by the outsides of others.

Toby Jenkins

00:30:18 - 00:30:20

That's a really nice way of putting it.

Jeff Bullas

00:30:21 - 00:31:05

Yeah and I know how I feel when I see peers and colleagues around the world having the best life on social media because we are sharing the highlight reels, as you mentioned. And I know how I feel when I do that, I'm going. I want to define my own success. How much is enough? And you've, we're all trying to work out what's important for ourselves. And so it certainly is a challenge. And I've minimized my observance of social media and interaction with it even because of that feeling, I'm going this. This isn't helping me.

Toby Jenkins

00:31:06 - 00:31:09

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

Jeff Bullas

00:31:10 - 00:32:02

Yeah, I just and yet, you know, to me, and what I've been doing in the last 10-12 years has been the most successful. Part of my life in terms of what I've done and what I've achieved. But the challenge in life for us is to actually keep working on the inside so that you can live a full life of flourishing life, a thriving life that is not a comparison to anyone else. But it's your comparison. And so yeah, just like you, I've had to reassess what success looks like. And when is enough? Because we live in a very material society which basically judges it's, you know, what is saying rather than what is unseen.

So just to wrap it up, Toby. Maybe, what are some of the, when you're helping people to be their best self and also to help CEOs. So you're helping by CEOs as well as teams? Is that correct?

Toby Jenkins

00:32:20 - 00:35:42

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and look, it's not even just CEOs, right. Like, what's fascinating to me is that CEOs, founders, top performing, you know, special forces military, parents making a transition like it's still it's a universal experience of what do I do now or how do I work with this particular situation. It's such a fundamental human condition, Jeff. But which is human suffering, right, you know, the anxiety, the fear, the sense of fraudulent or imposter syndrome or the above that just shows up, you know, as a Buddha, I think the story in Buddhism is like Mara shows up, right. And Mara is the demon of green fury and anger and resentment and all this other stuff and put us invite Mara and says, you know, you're welcome to come in and then but I think what's really interesting in this is that it's not, there is no end point to it, right? And I think the bit that gets lost out of that story Buddha doesn't just invite Mara to tea. Mara comes to tea many, many, many times for the rest of his life. And I think, if I think about okay, the kind of myths of some in this world, one is that your definition of success now is your final definition of success like it's, and it's one thing that I think you know. You and I have spoken about numbers of times as well, is that sort of It's the moving goal post, right. It is the process. And one of the things we have now is editable tools where you could, you know, what is your purpose if I put it one minute time box on that and just say, give in one minute. Tell me what your purpose is. I don't care if the rubbish just tell me what it is. Punch it into your phone and then check on that every day and edit it until you're ready until you're satisfied with it. And then in four weeks' time or four months' time or four years' time, you'll need to edit it again like it's a letting go. It's actually the right, and I think that's actually, you know, to the power of the digital age is we can edit literally every day and I have a page on, you know that I start with most days, not every day, but it has a version I'm up to version 15,547 or something is the days I've been alive, and I can release a new version tomorrow of purpose, values, vision, you know, big, hairy, audacious goal. Whatever it is right but the power to edit and see that as an ongoing process. I think you're far better off having a rubbish one minute first draft and then trying to guide action accordingly than waiting for some perfect vision builder or values finder or some tools that solve your problem because the tool doesn't solve the problem is what I found. There is no tool to solve the problem. The only thing that can happen is the acceptance of the acknowledgement that real acceptance of, well, this is an ongoing process and therefore accepting that that is the case and being willing to sit with that, right.

Jeff Bullas

00:35:43 - 00:35:59

Yeah. So you're saying that the most important thing in life is to accept what life is at any point in time and realize that it's maybe not forever. But just accepting, number one, is that where it starts?

Toby Jenkins

00:36:00 - 00:37:44

That's definitely where it starts, and that's why the triangle is actually a flexible base. So if you've got an acceptance in the bottom left, acceptance of the emotional state, whatever that is, and letting that even as opposed is perpetually fighting it, which is just exhausting, you know the mindfulness to say. Well, okay, I'll take a breath and just come back here and again. Mindfulness is not going off on a mountaintop. Mindfulness is like typing a single breath. You don't need to be in lotus position to be mindful, right. You just feel the sensation in your feet right now for like, a single second. And you know you're here, and then they do what matters. Part is the reconnecting whilst experiencing, you know, whatever it is the anxiety, the pressure to stress, the physiological response waking up an elevated heart rate, waking up all hours of the night, which I know is a real, classic entrepreneurial part of the entrepreneurial journey. But to reconnect with what matters and do you know what matters to you? So do you know? Do you have a drafter of your vision? Do you have a draft of your values? Do you have a draft of your purpose? Have you written down who is important to me? What is important to me? If you just answered those five questions in a draft in less than five minutes you'd be making substantial progress and just reconnecting with that daily like this. is the ongoing, in my opinion, endlessly fulfilling but unattainable goal of the daily practice of trying to move towards that stuff and be, you know, everyone. You can be in the process, right. Bring all of your stories to life and bring all of who you are as many moments as you can.

Jeff Bullas

00:37:45 - 00:37:53

So, to sum it up, what's that five step or five pillar framework that you mentioned? It's important as a human being to thrive and flourish.

Toby Jenkins

00:37:54 - 00:38:22

Yeah, so remember, keep in mind the triangle, the acceptance, mindfulness, do what matters and then do what matters column or do what matters part. Just answer. What is your purpose? What are your values? What is your vision? Who is important to you and what is important to you? And there's a bunch of other questions you can explore around that. But those are the starting five. That's how I think about it.

Jeff Bullas

00:38:23 - 00:39:28

That's awesome, mate. And thanks for sharing your wisdom and experience. And, we, all the humans want frameworks to help us make sense of life because it's messy and complicated but they are helpful and they're quite often individual constructs or there is a group construct, but that's fine. I think we all as humans are trying to make sense of life. And hopefully we make a difference to others along the way. And, yeah, I think that was great to hear. You, too. I said. Did you enjoy the journey as an Olympian athlete? And you said, yeah, I loved all 11 years of it and I think that's what we've got to try and maybe understand is that being an entrepreneur is no difference is enjoying the process of discovery and the growth that comes from it. And we discover ourselves as we start and grow a company and some of its ugly. Some of it's beautiful, but we just accept it as it is.

Toby Jenkins

00:39:29 - 00:39:45

And it's easier to love in hindsight, mate, than you know. Some of those times where you know things are going really hard, I think, and, but that's where you know, the practice of acceptance is also a very hard practice to maintain.

Jeff Bullas

00:39:46 - 00:40:02

Thanks, mate. It's been an absolute pleasure to see your smiling face again and look forward to catching up in real life as board is open and planes fly. All right, mate.

Toby Jenkins

00:40:02 - 00:40:03

Thanks for having me.

Jeff Bullas

00:40:03 - 00:40:04

Enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks, mate.

Toby Jenkins

00:40:05 - 00:40:06

Yes. Yeah.