Tell HN: Did you know you can negotiate price on many things?

If you're generous to others, they may be generous to you. If you're cheap with others, they will definitely be cheap with you.

A guy I worked with figured out that you can negotiate everything, and did. He'd get pissed off at the bank charging him an overdraft fee and sit in the telephone queue to get his £20 back.

He took a cab on a business trip to Dubai, and the cabbie kept the meter going while filling up. He argued it and got the equivalent of 50p off.

He'd negotiate agreements with brokers and negotiate absolutely everything.

He pushed really hard on the partnership agreement.

In the end it was just toxic and people were turned off. You don't want to end up in a long conversation every time there's something to negotiate. It also makes everyone think you're going to be difficult.

If you are a tourist in the global south, and you negotiate down the price of some craft/souvenir/whatever you are buying on the side of the road, you will be able to buy an extra cup of coffee back home, but the person there might have to stand in the sun and away from their family for 4 more hours.

Don't let the well-being of others all in the hands of "the market".

Source: I've lived in a developing country for long enough to work out how much things actually cost.

It’s not like their economies are that dynamic and have the liquidity to absorb most of them with decent stable jobs.

We like to forget but it only takes a year like 2008 to remind us.

I don't think he lost out as I legitimately had no interest in buying before he haggled himself down that low, but it was an interesting lesson in how far haggling can go in some circumstances...

There is little benefit to me in bargaining my way down to $25 - yeah they might think they've conned me, but (as long as it's not factory made junk) I'm happy to pay $50 for something that I like, even if I could negotiate it down to $25. The $25 saved simply doesn't mean that much to me in the grand scheme of things, but most likely does to them.

In the case of online goods they have a price X in USD because that is the currency the seller has / uses. They sell it to everyone at that price, they don't upcharge people who have to convert currencies.

Now, it is very well possible that those people will have to pay quite a lot for it, but that's because they buy from a seller based in a region that's financially better off and as such has higher prices in general, not because the seller tries to get as much as possible out of them.

It's far from being rude or inconsiderate—especially not "unethical".

The point is that due to the large different in wealth, the increase is "dramatic" for them, but probably neglible for you.

Why not make someone's life a tiny bit better by not pressuring some some small time vendor in a country with less than a third of the GDP per capita than yours into giving up their share of the wealth that tourism is supposed to bring. Otherwise: what is the point of tourism for a host country?

Imagine making 80k/year, paying $100/night for the hotel you are now stepping out of and then haggling with someone who maybe makes 10k/year over the price of a $30 hat that you would pay $59.99 for if you were to buy it in the US and that takes $5 to produce.

I personally don't just find it rude, I find it entitled.

Negotiating prices within "those cultures" make sense when the playing field is somewhat level. Don't exoticize and take advantage of it.

> You absolutely should haggle if for no other reason than to experience their culture a bit deeper.

That is just offensive. Go to a nice restaurant, enjoy their food, see a museum, enjoy the sights. Haggling is not at the core of anyone's culture.

Imagine a Thai person going to Olive Garden for the immersively american experience of tipping their waiters - and even that makes the tinies bit of sense, because at least in that transaction money flows in the right direction.

That puts my money to far better use.

BTW my wife is from a very poor country and she would laugh at anyones face for paying full price to a vendor. It doesn't make you "ethical" it makes you stupid in her mind.

I was thinking along the same lines a while ago. Then I realized something, please pass this along if you want:

No, they're not stupid. They just have money and they don't care that much. You're poor (or were and that memory lingers) and stressed out and they just want to relax.

By and large rich people are equally smart as poor people and are on average better educated. If they're doing something "dumb" constantly, you don't understand their world, especially this Iron Triangle of Activities:

Time - Stress - Money

any activity is somehow paid. With either your time or your stress or your money.

Poor people pay with time or stress, smart rich people convert those frequently into money.

As a foreigner you're going to pay a premium anyways no matter how hard you negotiate.

If you don't negotiate, that just becomes the "price you can get from foreigners", so the starting point gets jacked up. Soon enough it becomes the place tourists avoid.

Speak to a tour guide in these countries and he will tell you that many tourists from western countries that don’t have a culture of bargaining vastly overpay for many things that are marked up precisely because the locals know tourists don’t know any better. Even if they did, they would still make a profit.

People in the “global south” aren’t stupid. They are much better at playing the bargaining game than westerners. You are no match for their hustling. They will tell you when they cannot go any lower and will not sell for less than that amount. Even that amount is bound to make them a nice profit. It’s not like you’re fleecing them or coercing them into loss. They will not sell below what they can afford. Why would they?

If you want to be generous, be generous, but even generosity can be misguided and foolish, even condescending in its presuppositions (westerners often have patronizing views of the “third world”). Charity has its place. (Look at the effects of mitumba in Africa or free rice in Haiti for example of misplaced charity.) Ethically speaking, justice does not bind us to refrain from bargaining because there is nothing unjust about it.

  > Look at the effects of mitumba in Africa or free rice in Haiti for example of misplaced charity.

However, at the Farmer's market, there is a lot of price flexibility on products.

It is an excellent life skill to be able to distinguish between markets where prices are fixed and markets where they are flexible.

They have seen me before, and they will often give me a little discount or throw some new thing into my bag to try.

Maybe I could get an extra buck or two off, but I have it pretty easy as a software developer working from home.

Farming and selling at farmer's markets is hard work. If I don't get the very best price, I figure that's a little tip for them.

Of course if I were buying in quantity I might see it differently. But for the bit of produce I buy, I'm happy to pay for quality.

And I bet that if I needed a larger quantity, they would offer me a good deal.

Part of negotiating is building relationships.

I'm not disagreeing with you, and I really enjoyed that strange grocery story. Just offering a related perspective.

The produce has already been picked; it's not like they can take it back and re-plant it. They will most probably just sell it in bulk to some mom-n-pop grocery store and head back to their farms. So you can score some really nice deals.

I did this when I was tight on cash for a month or two and needed to survive on the more bare minimum budget.

Even if there is no price flexibility, the employee will often agree to sell you a cake for full price then give you a cake of similar value he was about to put in the trash for free. If they know you always tip and can convince themselves that their employer is also winning, they are highly incentivised to agree.

Sometimes people in a job like this will take the un-eaten cakes home, but in the end they can only find a home for so much free cake.

That is such an insightful comment; thank you!

And it's the best kind of negotiating. Not only do you get a good deal, it's a win for the farmer too.

In a farmer's market, they probably throw away half the produce, the margin is more in the quantity of goods than in the price, so it would always be better to try to get more goods for free than to put price down!

I don't think that any modern farm can sustain itself on farmers markets alone except when it's a hobby farm.

Everything not sold there will be sold to supermarkets in bulk. Farmer's markets are just a nice cherry on top where the margins are higher.

Honestly I don't mind this. If a video card costs $100 and you're selling at $110 and someone says "I'll give you $50" and makes you devote an hour to the sale, they aren't worth it.

But many of the comments on here have been anti-haggling, which is another way to say "Anti-negotiation". The problem I see isn't negotiation but instead how the negotiation takes place.

Let's take this computer store as an example. If you're one customer and you're making a single purchase- this is a simple transactional relationship and it behooves the store to optimize against such customers.

But if you are a customer who has been buying from this store for 10 years and using them for all the computer needs of a small business, presumably they've built a relationship up, in which case the computer store should know that they're gaining a loyal high-volume customer- a valuable asset indeed.

This means they can negotiate on many things, price being only one. They could negotiate on a barter of services, or they could negotiate on a personal relationship that's built up, or they could negotiate on service.

A good negotiation rarely happens in a single transaction.

I wondered what I would do if they asked to search my backpack on the way out. My imaginary response was, "No problem. I charge a ten dollar search fee, which of course if fully refundable if you find I've stolen something. If you question my fee, it goes up to twenty bucks, non-refundable."

Alas, I never got a chance to follow through on this, but it was a fun thought experiment!

I just walk by and usually they don't say anything, or if they do, I just reply "No thank you," as I am walking. Only one time a receipt checker actually (literally) yelled out, "That's not fair!" Everyone else just turns their attention to the next customer.

But if a few people were in line, I would just nod and smile and walk on by.

I never had an exit checker question this (they were trained not to!) but I did get a few dirty looks from other customers.

Sorry friends, it's not my fault if you don't know the rules. ;-)

Even Costco couldn't detain me if I didn't let them inspect my cart. But as you noted, they could refuse to let me shop there again.

Of course it would be my loss. Even if nothing else, the membership is worth it for the olive oil!

Did you happen to score any of the 2020 organic Val di Mazara? I've been a huge fan of their Toscana year after year, but the Val di Mazara is something else. Such a delightful peppery oil. I hope they get it again in the next harvest.

https://kfor.com/news/man-suing-costco-for-670000-after-refu...

The fact that you think they don't have the right, even if you are correct, does not mean it won't happen.

If an exit checker ever did say "Wait! Stop!" of course I would be friendly and let them check my receipt.

This would be the simplest solution, as my goal was not to prove a point about my rights, but simply to exit the store in an expeditious way with the merchandise I paid for.

But they never did question me, so it was never a situation I had to worry about.

This doesn't happen very often but as far as I can remember I've never been challenged when I do it.

But what I find really interesting is: based on what I've written above, isn't it trivially easy to guess my skin color?

Those security devices are generally there to scare potential thieves not actually detain or prevent them from leaving, so your anecdote doesn’t actually show anything interesting.

It frustrates me to no end when someone doesn't understand the word "no".

As you can learn from @SarahTaber_bww, they're also the most likely to use slave labor because small businesses can't afford HR departments.

And the price flexibility increases as closing time nears!

None of that is as simple as it sounds. "I want the best price" is not knowing what you want, it's requesting a 5% discount that patronizes you. Asking for what you want doesn't mean "give me X for $Y", it means building a rapport with the seller first, and usually negotiating over multiple items to get a positive-sum result. And being willing to walk away is really hard if you don't research, build up alternate options, and are genuinely OK with throwing what may be hours, days, weeks on the negotiation in favor of your alternative.

If someone gives you a huge discount just because you strolled up and immediately asked for it, honestly, it's not that you're a good negotiator, it's more likely that they're a bad negotiator, and by sheer virtue of even trying, you have exposed their lack of skill. You shouldn't consider that to be typical.

It is probably part of "know what you want", but to state it explicitly, I think that having an idea of the actual value is also necessary. How else do you know what is a good price? You could negotiate a 50% discount and still pay too much.

They: how much?

Seller: 1000 USD

They: I give you 10 USD

Seller: Sold

Since there was no counter offer, the 10 was still way too high.

I don't fully agree with you, I've gotten good discounts on things that I was not willing to walk away if I didn't get it. I just bluffed and pretended that I did, but I knew that in the end, I'd still buy it at the original price. It weakens the negotiation leverage, but it's still worth trying to get a discount even if you know that ultimately if it fails you'll buy it a the stated price

If the waiter seats you somewhere you don't like, don't be afraid to ask for the nicer table! At the hotel, don't be afraid to ask if they have a nicer suite you can have instead.

Often employees are not able to negotiate the price, but they have flexibility in what they can offer you!

I have to negotiate this for every auditorium, restaurant, in-person conference, meeting. I'm hard of hearing so where I sit really matters. "Sorry, can we sit somewhere quiet/up front?" is never a problem in a restaurant or auditorium that's only half-full.

I guess a general communication tip is give people objective goals, not subjective ones, and ideally a logical explanation for why you need them, if it's unusual. If it doesn't cost them anything most places are quite happy to oblige, I find.

India is on a path to digitizing everything from all the mom-pop stores to the random tea-sellers on the corner of every street to even the beggars accepting payments digitally. Yes, India does have a financial infrastructure far better than many developed countries.

I have been on the back-end side of one such digitization effort and have seen the data. Everything that we do, or anyone in the ecosystem does to optimize profit -- end target/product are always those small businesses and the mom-pop stores run by the neighborhood uncle and aunties.

When I buy from the local stores, the small businesses, I try not to negotiate, even when I know I could have and everyone else does. I know they make a tiny more profit, and I'm happy with my decision. If your help (maid, errand boys, others)[1] bought something and might keep the change. You know they kept the difference, but you just ignore it. It is a tiny sum for you but might just be dinner or different snacks for their kids.

I had my experience, and I don't want to be on the other end and be that smart-ass negotiator. My aunt helped me sell edibles during the Indian festival of Holi. In my first year (when I was 6-8 years), I was out-negotiated to reduce price and/or add more that I lost money in the transaction. I believe I cried, and ever since, wherever I can, I try never to take advantage of someone smaller/weaker on the other end of the negotiation.

1. India has a surplus of cheap labor. It is prevalent, affordable (and thus generate employment) for middle-class households to have maids around.

100% this. Sure, you CAN negotiate with the roadside vendors. But please, don't.

On the other hand, did you know you CAN negotiate the room rates at 5-star hotel chains? You definitely should :)

The one situation where I have had a lot of luck "negotiating" with 5-star hotel chains is when I'm already staying there and need to extend. In this case walking up to the front desk is more easier and far more likely to get you a good rate then enduring the hell that is trying to change your reservation online (Marriott, I'm looking at you).

This, just booked an hotel in NYC and on Booking.com was like 20% cheaper than the offer on the hotel website itself (where you had to pay in advance, while in Booking.com you would just pay at the hotel!!). I guess I could negotiate the full hotel price with the hotel, they are adding a ludicrous margin, but not with Booking.com (even if they are adding their good margin anyway).

I'm assuming "edibles" means something different in Indian English... Or you guys are very liberal when it comes to 6 year old drug dealers!

Edit: You got me thinking, what else was I selling. I kinda remember when weed not yet deemed illegal to grow locally (in India) or was I in a neighborhood with lots of them growing around. Seriously, I need to talk to my aunty.

I saved and saved to get mine in my early 20s, and assumed it's just the price you pay like anywhere else.

About 8 years later, went to same place for my wife and between age and experience I just said 'ah, sounds like too much we'll go elsewhere' and they nearly halved the price. Wish I knew that the first time!

However, don't overdo it. You're highly unlikely to get anywhere trying to negotiate at big box or grocery stores on typical items and likely just annoy the cashier. My brother used to get driven up the wall by people wasting time doing this - noting they were usually foreign people and that may have been how things worked in their native country.

My manager though would always be ready to wheel and deal on big items. He told me eventually they get bonuses based on monthly sales, so would do anything to get them.

Weird dynamic really. So basically you only might get a discount on non busy days when the store manager was in. This is probably why the whole 'Let me talk to the manager' stuff came about in the first place.

My vague understanding of the subject is that everyone just pulls giant numbers out of thin air to start the professional haggling conversation with (presumably) the recipient's insurance adjustment team - who will promptly bring things into the realm of reality they work within. IIUC if insurance is held hostage for a full amount (eg, workplace injury) it might end up a lot lower, while if there's an opportunity for recipient copay (eg, elective surgery) the insurer will punt and say "ok we'll just do $X" - even though the recipient may not realize they can adjust the cost down just as easily as the insurer can.

(I faintly recall reading about someone getting some random procedure done, getting quoted $10k by a doctor in a medical center, following up and going "?!?!?!" and being told by the receptionist or similar that the procedure was really just $300 or so (or similarly less). Something like that. The doctor simply had no idea so pulled a number out of rand().)

I think things started out trying to manage liability and lawsuit funding (and legal can generally be a giant price guide watermark hot air balloon...), but sort of accidentally got permanently associated with "oh that'll be expensive" to the point the whole thing just a self-fulfilling-prophecy-powered perpetual motion machine - and not just that, but one with an ever-widening margin between expectation and reality... that the powers that be are distinctly disincentivized to disentangle in any way shape or form.

So being able to assertively question medical fees, and do it Correctly™, is a definitely-useful skill, albeit one that is categorically tricky to learn (caveat emptor :/)...

They generally have a discount budget they can use on small items if you buy big items.

E.g, I got my carrying case for free because I bought a switch _and_ two games.

Got delivery and installation free because we bought a stovetop _and_ a fridge.

But it had to be negotiated.

During those first years they would have paid off all the equipment and sold the treatment to the vast portion of eligible patients.

Congrats for asking! I should try that!

The surgery was super quick, and I could see amazing right away. Then it all went away. I probably slept for 2 or 3 days straight... waking only to take a pain pill and sleep again. I remember looking at the ceiling fan each day and it looking clearer and clearer before my eyes hurt and said pills.

I could finally work but my eyes were super light sensitive and my resolution was trash. I was sitting in a room with no lights, sunglasses, and my laptop screen zoomed way in when I started back at work, and even then kept confusing minus for equals.

In short time it healed and like most things, I forgot the bad and am completely happy.

My wife got Lasik and could see perfectly a few hours later with no side effects.

I guess she doesn't mind that gross eye flap I kept reading about, lol.

In the end, we are both happy with our choices and would do it again in a heartbeat.

Don't ask for a "deal", "discount", "best price", etc, ask, "Can you do X at $Y?"

Consumer Reports has a good chart you should scroll down and look at:

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2013/08/how-to-...

This is also true of tvs and a lot of electronics.

Mattress sales where all mattresses are half price happen pretty frequently.

The others say they can only do 10% or that I can't negotiate. The later, I just laughed and walked out the door as he was trying to get me to stay. I didn't want to reward that behavior. The rest, I just thank them for their time and wish them a good day as I leave.

South Korea has thousands of traditional markets which have been slowly dying for decades - lack of transparent prices is frequently cited as a major reason. Few people want to spend time haggling just to buy a mackerel.

I also have a suspicion that people even find haggling rude. I also think others are confused by it, like the choosing beggar subbredit seems to often just be bad attempts at haggling

I do. Or used to. Then I kinda learned how it all works. If I had an item that could sell for say, 100 on ebay, I'd list it for 80 to get a quick sale without shipping. Then people offering 50 seem rude or crazy to me.

Then I learned to just price it high. So now, that item I'll list for 120, and 'fine, final offer' it to 80 and that works way, way better.

I think people just want to feel like they won, more than about values of items.

Another protip: Never list anything for free. You'll find the worst in society. List it for 5 or 10 dollars, then just tell the buyer it's free when they come.

It is insane how true this is. If I put something on Craigslist for $10 that I was thinking about throwing away, someone polite will buy it within a week and show up on time. The first time I put something in the "free" section instead, someone sent me a legit hate email because they didn't like the item I was giving away for free... wtf?

So I could see a situation where most buyers with actual intent to purchase are only searching in the "Furniture" section. And the chairs in question might not have been nice enough to attract interest from the "flippers" in the free section.

Maybe we just set the initial price differently?

Do you consider that to be good faith negotiating?

And maybe you work with them on that and they’re like, “ok but I actually have a commitment tomorrow and can only meet at 3:30am and if there’s a waning crescent moon hovering above us…”

The demands get longer. It’s clear they’re not actually interested. They’re just testing their own waters and are time wasters.

So you most likely are getting those responses because a large chunk of the CL buyers are in the market for prices at that level. A 20% discount feels like something you can get from the retailer if you just wait for a sale. But I guess, CL is popular enough where if you have the time to wait it out, you might eventually find a a buyer. But still seems insane to me that anyone would take that deal considering the risks.

Also, FWIW, there is no reason you can't counter offer in those cases. Considering the amount of time and effort it takes to meet in person, it is probably better that the price be pre-negotiated via e-mail before meeting in person. I certainly would never show up in person and try to get a lower price on the spot. The few times I have lowballed via e-mail (I was/am looking for a really niche item, and the only suitable listing has been sitting on CL for weeks) I got counter offered. It was still too high for my tastes, but the listing is still there so I might try again in a few weeks!

I get a lot of low effort people who want you to drive everything to them and pay bottom dollar (even though I’m very centrally located). Super annoying.

But you are tangibly hurt by systemic discrimination. Otherwise qualified people give up their career choice to avoid harassment or because of inequitable salary. Then we are left with less qualified and motivated people staffed in important positions. Your work, health, or other aspect of your life are affected, just not in ways you can easily see or measure.

Despite the fact that the store in question usually has pretty crappy service and I avoid them, the customer focus in that interaction increased the chances that I'll go there again in the future.

(Why did I try if I normally don't? It actually started when I misheard the price they said, and I figured why not just roll with it and see what happens?)

They sometimes actually do, but they aren't meant for haggling purposes, and are often only allowed up to a small amount (like say $20). They're meant for things like price-matching or resolving pricing discrepancies.

I used to be a cashier at a sporting goods chain store. No one ever told me, but I discovered I could give 5% discounts without an override. My team lead could give 10%. No one ever asked for a discount, but I would have probably given them if the customer asked nicely. Of course I could also adjust the price if the tag showed something different, and the computer did not request an override unless it was a large discrepancy.

don't try to haggle with retail staff.

I used to sell bicycles where everyone expects a discount. Not being weak I would risk them walking away. Typically I would explain that we don't have much mark up on actual bikes and would also point out that I had spent a half hour or so on them so they can get the perfect machine. I would also explain to them that next week they would forget the price and that in ten years time they would see the price paid as a bargain.

I would then say that everyone likes a deal and that I could do them lights or a D lock or a helmet. I would explain that he brackets for the lights or the lock can be a faff to get right, and that if they took my deal, then we would get the chosen extras fitted properly and now. Usually this was enough for them to get the free lights, paying for the helmet and D-lock. So, by not being weak and being honest about 'my boss killing me for discounting', I would get full retail plus the upsells and a loysl customer. Nobody walked off with this stance which was great.

Naturally we had mountains of the accessories offered so it would cost $10 - $20 in parts that cost less than trade price.

I am NOT a strong negotiator, I'll usually only ask if I'm buying a few things or my checkout price will be greater than ~$200, but just asking will usually be enough. "Can I get a discount" or "can you throw in some of this stuff for free." But even with that, I've been able to get plenty of discounts.

And that expands a TON if you add floor model/open box/dent and ding items. Almost any store will give you a minimum of 10% off on AT LEAST those items.

Places you can negotiate:

* Any car dealership

* Buying houses or real estate

* Renting apartments/houses not managed by multi-city corporations

* Music stores, excluding Guitar Center

* Guitar Center (somewhat)

* Mattress stores

* Furniture stores (that are at least on the level of Ashley furniture) or independent (so no Ikea).

* SaaSes that have sales teams [email them and ask, they often will give discounts if you have a better reason than "I want a discount" which is a pretty low bar. Like student (real student, not I still have my college address 10 years later), military, I'm a poor startup founder and can't afford the full price. <- I've used this a few times pre-revenue]

* Smaller software companies that aren't selling games (email them and ask, they often will give discounts if you have a better reason than "I want a discount" which is a pretty low bar)

* ANY place that sells anything used from slightly used to antiques

* Farmer's markets

* Boutique food stores (this one is kinda iffy unless spending a fair bit)

* Flea markets

* Dentist offices (the approach is different here usually appealing to loyalty discounts, personal hardships, or extra cosmetic type services)

* Mall kiosk vendors oftentimes

* Outside of the US any kind of vendor in a shop that is in a specialized mall (ex. In Seoul in the electronics district, there are malls full of small vendors that have similar inventory as everyone else, you can haggle a ton)

* Any independently owned shop that has most items retailing for >~$50 or average ticket price >~$100.

* Non-chain Restaurants (but I'd generally avoid it unless going high end because margins are usually tiny)

* Pretty much ANY store that hasn't "standardized" itself to death.

* Rental cars

* I could keep going.

Places you can't:

* National chains where the sales staff is minimum wage. Walmart, Best Buy, Target

* Stores selling small-ticket items (average purchase is under $100)

* Online retailers (outside of standard coupons, etc)

* Grocery stores

* Regional/nationally managed rentals.

* I'm having trouble thinking of other places you can't negotiate at least a little at...

The moral of the story is any place with a physical presence MUST charge a considerable markup (40% markup would be in the discount store range of markups) in order to stay in business, so if it is worth their while to make a sale they will haggle.

If they are selling commodity goods or small ticket items it's difficult to make it worth their while to even talk to someone wanting to haggle.

1. I should have seen it coming - entitled dude took on himself to get the 33% discount he thought he deserved. 2. It sucked. I spent some time since writing some agreement template and will slowly roll them out with new clients.

Everything is negotiable it's just that:

A) Most mortals do not have the leverage to open up a negotiating position (not important enough)

B) Most sellers at a front desk may not have the authority to meet you half way in a negotiation.

The number one tip I would give is to always consider the person you are negotiating with (note: "person" != "business") and try to reach a win-win. Make their job easy and maximise their profit/commission.

For example, if someone messages us on Facebook with some links to our eBay listings and asks if we can do a better price, the answer is always yes. We're happy because we don't have to pay eBay's cut of the sales (around 10% usually), the buyer is happy because they get a discount. If they're buying multiple items, even better! We don't have to pay for 5 separate lots of "free shipping".

Same thing when you pay a tradesman in cash. They "forget" to enter your transaction into their accounting system (no tax!), you get a better deal. Not everyone would consider this ethical, of course, but it's the same principle of tit-for-tat.

If a seller can't set a fair honest nominal price, in the expectation of haggling, it reduces my trust of them in other ways.

There are situations where negotiating makes sense, but often sellers should assume their list price is what they've negotiated.

How much of a discount that's worth depends on the likelyhood of collecting after the legal process as well as how much of a reputational hit going through the process would be.

I wouldn't negotiate with most things after the service was performed (unless it wasn't to my satisfaction), but most services will have a firm quote before the service (sometimes that's legally required). A mechanic can keep your car until you've paid, but a hospital can't refuse to discharge you until you've paid, so they don't have the leverage to get immediate payment.

(probability of recovery) * (1 - profit margin) * (amount owed)

today, for the right to sue on you behalf?

Note: I think the current debt collection system in the US is terrible, especially for medical debt. I suggest looking at the charity "RIP Medical Debt" if you do too.

At the very least, when selling a debt to a collections agency, the (re)seller of the debt should be obligated to first offer the same price to the person that owes money.

That seems reasonable at first glance, but it would lead to an explosion of people simply refusing to pay and waiting for the 'debt collector price' offer to arrive.

Depending on the debt, getting most of the difference between the legal expenses and the debt itself is in reach, given a creditor who is a rational actor.

Suing people who don't pay their bills is a losing proposition. You will be paying lawyers and getting very little to nothing in return.

In the "of course that exists" category, there are services that give a score about somebody's ability to pay.

I really hate how every business process can be (and frequently is) optimized to the nth degree at the cost of privacy.

https://www.equifax.com/business/product/ability-to-pay/

What about before you undergo the medical services? Why is it so damn uncommon to ask for a price before seeing the doctor?

Imagine choosing doctors like plumbers. Do you go with the one with the low initial exam fee? How about the one your family member recommended? Or the one with good reviews on the internet? Then, when they tell you the plan, do you go to another one and pay their exam fee to find out their plan?

I have some experience at this from the veterinary side. Some people do treat us like plumbers. They know there are several points of leverage in the pricing. However, it is a two edged sword. If you decline the plan and renegotiate it, the vet is liable to stop recommending the expensive options because you are more focused on money than health. This happens unconsciously. If you decline a $20 diagnostic after a half hour of haggling I won't have time or energy to try to convince you to spring for a $100 monthly treatment when an inferior but acceptable treatment is available for less. I'll present both options and you will probably choose the inferior one as part of your haggling strategy.

Haggling makes lots of sense when the quality of the commodity is not under control of the salesperson, it is easy to determine, and the salesperson pads your price with lots of margin. In medicine, everything is opaque and haggling is rarely able to take a broad cut on price without sacrificing quality.

The main reason is that, often, the doctor is choosing the specific procedures after you show up, not before. There's not a price for "stomache ache".

For the elective procedures where it is known what is involved up-front, there is some price shopping that does happen.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220318005244/en/Equ...

> Effective July 1, 2022, paid medical collection debt will no longer be included on consumer credit reports.

In addition, the time period before unpaid medical collection debt would appear on a consumer’s report will be increased from 6 months to one year, giving consumers more time to work with insurance and/or healthcare providers to address their debt before it is reported on their credit file.

In the first half of 2023, Equifax, Experian and TransUnion will also no longer include medical collection debt under at least $500 on credit reports.

Few memories that seem relevant:

- The advice is to negotiate by building a relationship or mutual understanding. The opposite party should feel good about granting you the sales and not begrudge your style or demands. He had chapters about how to socialize what is essentially a trade. Chat them up, show them why you would like the product, etc. Some of that feels old fashioned.

- You can't one-time negatiate something through display of power. That's a negotiation style for repeat negotiations where you balance your display of power with a loss of future bargaining power.

- Can't negotiate when the other party has no skin in the game. Be it the owner of the store, or someone selling on a concept of commission: they can oversee the financial consequences of your willingness to strike a deal. Can't negotiate with hourly wagers in large firms.. Unless (relationship) they like you and are allowed to decide on prices.

But part of it is probably also that I'm very easy going; I'm happy to take whatever it is he's trying to move, and happy to grab chunky ends or other pieces that would be annoying to cut, etc.

The solution of course is to actively keep in touch with changing market dynamics. The last couple of years have had rapid changes through the shortages and inflation, so you need to consider todays value not yesterdays.

Feels like a lesson every gamer with a Steam Sale backlog could stand to learn.

By the way, guitar center doesn’t really negotiate much anymore. They tend to price guitar more realistically than they used to. 10 years ago you could pretty much rely on getting 40% off or so from the price tag, but they’ve trended away from that in the last few years.

buying a car or getting a hotel room? not much harm can be done there

I have lived abroad since (including China where I used my negotiating skills a lot :) ) so I'm not sure how it is nowadays.

I wonder how this changes across different countries. I know in India, there's a lot of flexibility in negotiation/haggling prices.

But living in Germany, I always get the impression that things are fixed price and I typically don't bother negotiating. Unless it's the rare street market/Weihnachtsmarkt where they're willing to negotiate (and even there they usually don't).

I'm curious to know other countries experience if people can chime in.

I have better things to do with my time than convince someone something is not worth as much as they want for it.

Funnily enough, there was a big media frenzy when haggling was legalized* in 2001 that everyone was going to start to haggle in supermarkets and every store would grind to a halt. That obviously didn't happen.

*) Technically, it was legal before, but limited to 3% of the price.

Same works in Japan. Saved me a few hundred bucks on my TV.

This may not be the best starting point, but it's a place.

A friend took some coaching class once where they were given "scary" human interaction challenges, starting with very small simple ones and working up to ones where you would expect to get slapped. Not only did it help condition my friend to be more outgoing, but he got a surprising number of "Ok"s. I'm not sure this is the best approach, but it appeared to be effective.

And it reminds me of this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vZXgApsPCQ

Negotiating for price still feels very weird to me in most circumstances though.

I reguarly will buy the last of something and end up taking the floor/display model. Usually for a 10-25% discount (very occasionally more on things most people wouldn't touch the floor model on and have a healthy mark up) on the price they have listed.

That and buying a bunch of things and asking for a discount are the best ways to haggle that I've found. If buying 10 things from a shop (not small ticket items or at chain stores with minimum wage employees) it's usally easy for them to throw in the lowest priced items as "freebies".

He looks at me, writes a figure on a small sheet of paper and slides it over. I look at it, nod and slide it back, thanking him. It was almost half off their advertised rate.

Bonus: he asked me to park in the "employee of the month" parking spot, since that employee wasn't going to be working that night.

I prefer shops where they have already offered stock at their best price and refuse to price it lower. One less thing to worry about.

I'm not a Business Major or anything, but I'm guessing the median mark-up on items is 100% (50% profit). Thus if I get a 40% discount on something (like a mattress), the seller is still most likely making a 20% profit.

Well, there's your first problem. A 100% markup will only yield 50% profit if you have no operating costs at all.

In many African countries, it is expected that you spend 10 minutes bargaining for everything: food, cab fares, etc., and it’s a thing locals do a lot.

In the US, there is a lot of negotiating too. And also a lot of “small bribery”. Things like slipping a 20 dollar bill to someone to get ahead in a line is extremely common.

In Europe it is much less common. Some things like furniture or cars are often negotiated, but the negotiation margins are much much narrower than in the US (I once got a carpet from ABC carpets in NY at 30% of its tag price).

The price i pay for not dealing with the stress of haggling is well worth it for most things (salaries an exception where it may be worth it)

I don't view negotiating as something stressful.

Instead of trying to negotiate fruitlessly 100x (I have enough experience to know this doesn’t work well anymore and is a time waster) I just wait for the deal to happen for me.

So far - it’s worked great and people around me are impressed. As they say, hurry up and wait.

Our current living situation was intolerable due to unending construction noise next door, and the minimum time you could rent an apartment for was 6 months, so it was a matter of moving right now or being stuck until we took possession of the house.

Found the perfect place, at a reasonable price, and of course there was tons of interest in it. I insisted on getting the first viewing appointment, put in an application immediately, and offered the landlords an extra $50/month on top of the rent they were asking.

So, of course my application was the one they accepted. In this situation, $300 very well spent.

Could be a lack of imagination on my side ofc.

I've always assumed prices at retail shops are fixed, because, for the brief (and horrible) period of time _I_ worked retail, prices are set by corporate...

Any suggestions? Advice? Links? Primers?

I've negotiated my whole life for salary and consulting rate, but never negotiated anything else.

Additionally, for anyone reading this that doesn't know it, you CAN negotiate AirBNB rates, and often do it in a way where you AND the host are happier. I didn't know this until being with someone who runs several top-tier AirBNB houses.

Some AirBNB hosts would be happier letting you stay for a few days "officially" (to make sure you're not crazy or a jerk), and then extend the reservation in cash. Or book the reservation for a long duration, then shorten it once you check in.

It varies from location to location but we sometimes offered guests a 15% off discount if paid in cash, frequently it worked out that we got the same amount.

Instead negotiate on value. If you’re going to pay such a higher price, find out what else you can get that is valuable to you but of little value to them. For instance instead of 40% off on rooms, I’ve gotten free upgrades to better rooms, with late 3pm checkouts.

in fact I'm so bad at this that it extends to the inability to see prices on items.

If I walk into a shop and notice that it doesn't have prices on items I'll walk out. I do NOT want to be talked into buying something.

Unless it is something I really need/want, in which case I might have to step out of that comfort zone. But retailers might be surprised by how much I'm willing to do without in order to avoid that!

The last thing you want to do with a customer like that is remind them they are spending money.

It's too much mental effort and I don't find there's any mental reward to the process. It doesn't feel like I got "a deal" it feels like the business or individual I negotiated with is probably trying to rip me off, and probably succeeded.

I'll get the best price by businesses competing with each other for my custom. Or I won't. Either way 'haggling' is alien to me and I prefer the world to be more straightforward.

Turns out if I bought a minimum amount they were willing to give me a significant discount - much better than the sale pirce, and the minimum amount wasn't that much.

I may start doing this a lot - just email and ask for a coupon.