I have mixed feelings about this. It may be a cultural thing (I'm French) but emailing someone two times after being ignored sounds like spam.

If I email someone once and don't get an answer, I consider that it means they are not interested. I may try a second time with a different idea or if I have something else to offer, but pitching the same thing again and again sounds rude to me.

It's an interesting system but I think it could also push away people who don't want to be annoying and favour people who don't care about others.

Hm. At first, I didn't agree with this strategy. I run an online business so I get requests from people who want to place ads, write for me, etc. If they email a second time I mark theire message as spam.

But they are asking for something that is not exactly aligned with what I do. If I was in the business of working with musicians or other creatives and my day was spent handling exactly the stuff they were sending (just not all of it), and their ultimate success would be in large part based upon their persistence...then this method would be a good filter.

It could be very personal to the receiver, of course. As the person soliciting, you'd run the risk of turning them off completely. But if they don't respond after the first contact and never will, then you aren't really risking anything and may as well contact them again.

I suppose you could be more than just insistent and send them another piece of content every time, thereby also demonstrating that you have the potential to build a large catalog and are not a one-hit wonder who only has one song in them. Of course, everything you send would have to be excellent.

Thank you. This one was concretely helpful to me.

This anecdote made me flop my thinking a couple times in reading and chewing on it. I am both appalled but also in agreement, and that internal conflict caught my attention.

See, I am often hesitant to follow up. It feels selfish, and it feels like I'm bothering the person. If they cared, they'd have responded, and I don't want to be a jerk about it.

But also? If I am honest with myself, some of the emotion in that consideration, is fear and shyness, dosed with a bit of good old fashioned passive-aggression. I already knew this, but I lacked a positive story to counter that instinct. This piece provides me the story.

Obviously, this does not mean I'm going switch to a level of spammy constant follow up, but I am using this to give myself permission to follow up *at all* before I start shutting myself down.

So that's useful. Thanks.

Wow! I manage my workload the exact opposite. If I'm that busy, I don't want to encourage additional contact, but instead, quality contact.

If someone "selling" me something follows-up a second time, they go to the bottom of the consideration queue. If they follow-up a third time they get blocked.

Yes, repeteadly contact is really important, I am a sales in China and the competition is very fierce, so if we failed to establish good contact with our potential client for the first time, no problem, just try second time, third time, many many times...

I was horrified by this...then I realised that I do some version of this unconsciously. I work in a back office role (not sales) and am so busy that if you're not one of my key stakeholders then if I'm not chased up I assume it's not important and so ignore it

This is a hard one.
No wonder the comments vary so much in their reactions.
I would compare it to wondering whether it is selfish to send a thank you note after a job interview.

As it happens, I've been with the same company for almost 30 years, but still, I would like to know.

Therefore, at a seminar, I once asked a panel of employers. They looked at each other and at the crowd and their consensus was yes, it is fine to send a thank you note.

For this idea of treating a flooded person as if she was incompetent at answering e-mail, I would have to ask a panel.

I think repeated follow-up sometimes may seem rude to others. If your music is really good , contacting with a potential client repeatedly is good for you to market your music, but it is not, maybe spending more time on producting better musics is better than repeated follow-up.

I think that people’s reactions to this post vary so much because they are applying the principle to their own workflow when the business model that it supports is different to their own.

In this case, the person receiving the mail is a publicist. Publicists need good people to publicize, but I imagine that they need committed people who are persistent and passionate and who really want to work with them. This system ensures that only those people get through and the one off, lukewarm, time wasters are eliminated.

As an example, the takeaway that I got was that sometimes ignoring societal norms, like replying and following up, can be used to leverage better results for you. If your time is the limiting resource guard it closely. Secondly, when dealing with publicists, be persistent.

Could I suggest a read of "Green eggs and Ham", Dr Seuss. It's a quick read.
Ha! Persistent salesmanship, that's for sure. — Derek

Persistence is a compliment. Couldn’t agree more with you on this, Derek.

In this day and age you're better off getting your own audience then people will want you instead of pursuing them it will be the other way around. Success breads success.

I agree that it's important to learn how to effectively follow-up with people who could give you work.

I, also, agree with Benjamin Houy. In my industry, some key decision makers are so busy that they don't want to be contacted by artists. Plus, if artists are to contact decision makers, they should ask "how can I help you?" rather than the other way round

This is the flip side of Sivers.org/persistence, and, for my money, amplifies its lesson.

After I read the first time I thought, "Are you sure that most of ppl operate this way".

After I read the second time I realise, I've been dealing with my internal customers the same way.

I worked in IT and manage multiple projects at the same time. If someone wants something, I'll put in the queue but don't touch it until I got followed up 3-4 times. The more they follow up, the more they need to get the work done so we do it for them.

I knew a few A&R reps in my time but never knew one who would have ever have been THAT organized, or had the time, to maintain that methodical approach to their work. That publicist was impressive. I can see why you would have had a look of disbelief when she told you this. I think we all did reading it.

The hard part with that approach, and of being "the one" being shifted from inbox to inbox (regardless of whether it's music, or looking for jobs, or making an offer on a 2nd hand car, or whatever), is to get over the seemingly constant rejection being thrown at you - coz human nature (well mine anyway) says that "following up" multiple times will only piss them off more, reducing the chances of a positive outcome.

That said, I can understand the logic.

Hey, Derek,

I only play for a hobby. I know that to make music concert ready it requires a full time devotion. My church interests outweigh my music interests, so I just have fun playing classical violin and jazz music comps every day. All the best to you and your efforts to uplift the struggling musicians.

This could work with some context. If it's something you don't need but can help aligned with your values, like the musician in the example, then I could see this working brilliantly. Essentially learning to say no is important to get things done and filter out the noise. However, if you need the emails for leads, clients, sales, etc, then yeah, you need to reply on the first email.

Good tip Derek.
You re missed at cdbaby.

I imagine if you divided the world into to groups, those who persistently follow up and those who stop contact after one attempt. I'd venture to say the first group is a lot more successful than the second.

Tenacity does not equal Talent.

Wow! This is a revelation to me. I thought people would be bothered and annoyed if I “pestered” them with follow ups.

Excellent advice and reminder for me and anyone in any business involving sales or selling yourself. The key is knowing how often to follow up. This strategy works. Years ago at one of my creative "day jobs" I helped my company land a big national account after the third month of polite monthly reminders to our prospective client. That new client called me "politely persistent".

P.S. I later revamped a song titled "Persistence Pays" which a music industry pro told me was too difficult to sing! But gee, I like popping P's! :)

You are absolutely right. A record executive once told me he had not forgotten me, but had been tied up, and just forgot to call back. He thanked me for following up and calling back. I thought I was being annoying, when his response validated what you're saying. Since then I've not had any misgivings about following up with radio calls and leaving messages... Thanks I hope you're well and Happy 20th Birthday of your Baby..... I think I've been there the entire 20 years.. Bill McGee

How does the philosophy of the Tao Te Ching (doing by "non-doing" and all that) fit in with this?
¿¿☺?? How does a salad? Probably doesn’t — Derek

This line is gold -Patience and persistence separates you from the rest, and shows how much you care. - That persistence also makes it personal - the person getting the repeat communication (your friend the publicist in this example) could perceive that 'hey this person is following up - because they specifically want to work with me - I'm special - my unique talents & skills are recognized.'

Thanks so much for sharing!

This principle leaves me in a conundrum. I've heard over and over that it works. Like advertising, multiple exposures do more good than a single exposure and persistence pays off.

Years ago, when my recording studio was overbooked, the only new clients I took were those who would call three or more times. I thought this meant that their project was not just a temporary whim and they were serious about getting things done. The problem it created was that when I set my boundaries pretty tight, the only people who got in were those who had no respect for my boundaries.

By taking the 3-time caller, what I ended up with was clients who were very controlling people who never took "no" for an answer or had much concern for my welfare because persistence pays off. They could get their way, irrespective of what the cost might be to me, personally. Yes indeed, they showed me how much they cared, but it was mostly for themselves.

Applying that to myself (in reverse) meant respecting other people's boundaries. Not so good for climbing the ladder but more in keeping with being the kind of person I prefer to be - one who respects other people's time, their privacy, their right to say no and their right to choose freely without being hammered at by me to change their will. My willingness to curb my ambitions for the sake of others was how I showed people how much I care.

This is something I've been thinking about and changing. Usually too worried about making folks mad. Now, I force myself t follow and do so gently

pa

Pair your persistence with Derek's concept of marketing being a form of consideration--think of your audience (the PR person) and connect with what she needs or wants. Also, don't follow up three days in a row--every two weeks.

GREAT POINT!!!

HI Derek
This is such a great story, and it gets right to the core of my biggest issue, follow up. I realize that as I build my marketing campaign I need to build follow-up into the schema now.
I'm also grateful to have the opportunity to read your quiet offerings in relation to your upcoming book. I've been working on a book for the past two years and am building a new website and for the first time writing a blog. Thank you for the timely posts.

Just how many quality acts did she miss out on. She will never know

Amazing.

“ If someone doesn't care enough to follow-up a few times, I don't want to work with them.” Saving this one in my Notes. Thank you so much for illuminating and enlightening my world. Lovelovelove

So appreciate all of the great insight!
Thank you so much Derek!
Have an awesome week!
Rachel🙋🎈

This was fascinating! (And I’d like to know how much time between followups she considered reasonable before she tossed the contents of boxes 1 and 2!) I think this is valuable info to keep in mind.

Most of us have had the experience during dating to be pursued or being the pursuer. Sometimes when they do not stop asking, it's labeled as stalking (think spam inbox). But more often than not, the persistence pays off.

About 4 years ago while traveling the world vagabond style, I met a charming and inquisitive lady at a library. She must have felt sorry for me. . . --we exchanged contact information. I didn't have a big bank account, a large home, or even a car, but I had persistence. And I knew she was 'the one'.

It took almost a year, but I finally got the first date.
After 2 years, she finally accepted my marriage proposal.
4 years later, our marriage is a blessing to both and can be summed up by these words:

"polite persistence pays off."

(The same goes for business relationships)

This concept is a familiar one within Chinese culture, and in fact, a Chinese saying references it almost directly: “三顾茅庐” (lit. three humble visits to a thatched cottage).

In the story it references, the warlord Liu Bei visited the cottage of a renowned strategist, Zhu Ge Liang, who lived in isolation, to request aid. He was turned away twice by servants with the excuse that Zhu Ge Liang was out, and the third time was finally allowed to make his case. The saying is used to reference the idea that persistent follow up indicates sincerity in a request.

Thanks for sharing!

The polite Midwesterner in me cringed while reading that, but that's a very good lesson. Keep asking until you get a real answer.

Hmm, I really, really like this. I think it's true for me as well. I am going to try sending some follow up emails tomorrow for a couple things that have gone crickets recently.

Inspiring pick-up!

Agree with the lady publicist with respect.

There is always a certain type of threshold between individuals from true communication more or less, so basically what she is doing is basically filtering the intentions out of behaviors.

Cruel, but effective.

More interestingly, Derek points out "it wasn't ego". Contrarily, it was rather about the ego of those musicians. If they were able to stay clear-minded about their works without being affected by personal emotions (resulting from being ignored in this case), then the messages will be delivered.

In other words, if those ambitious musicians don't care about their own stuffs, who else?

"We judge ourselves based on our intentions, and we judge others based on their behaviors."

Persisting and being polite about it does pay off sometimes and both parties get to keep their dignity and like themselves.

On another hand, one can do the 3-times filter when they are in the more advantageous position.

This is genius. I just realized that at least once in my professional life I should have follow-up at least 2 more times. It shows trust in yourself/your work. Amazing article. Thank you!

How it really works is you're persistent for decades and you die un-noticed. Har har har!

Caring is a powerful point of credibility for many. There really is nothing more powerful then someone that believes enough in their ask or idea to continually follow up. Until there is a no, there is an open door!! Thank you for bringing this message with clarity as well as practicality!!!

As always greateful for you Derek,

Shaun

This is my method for getting things done. I follow up. Even though it's not easy.

I surely understand, but too, isn't it considered harassment to keep bugging someone.

I won't pretend to know what it's like to be a successful music publicist but it seems to me that listening to new music submissions is part of her job. She's treating it as a burden when it requires relatively little effort but could potentially make her a good amount of money. Certainly, it's her prerogative to do so, but...

I see a lot of this behavior. It's unaccountability packaged as righteousness. It's time-wasting and deferment of responsibility. It's tolerated– even celebrated, when it's done by a successful person.

I read an article about 'Keeping Control of your Inbox'. The advice given was, "delete most everything and if it was really important, the person will follow-up. So if something is important, the people I work with can't respond to my first request? It's my responsibility to impress upon them that it's important and practically beg for their attention? I have to send two emails to get one response because others can't manage an email inbox? That seems lame.

To me, this seems like a way of reducing your effort at the expense of others.

I wonder what would happen if we all did this.

This works, but there is a massive caveat.

If you're constantly emailing just to get noticed, it can get spammy real quick.

But how you construct those emails (with care, putting the recipients' needs first in a mutually beneficial proposal, watching ps and qs, grammar, spelling, etc) will make all the difference.

I've had people send me emails which were more or less emojis and text-speak.

Guess what I did with that email?

I understand her system but I don’t know if I just want to work with people that are good at annoying you. Yes, persistence is a key characteristic to have in any field, but I would prefer to measure follow-through. For example, I get asked to mentor a lot within my company, but instead of choosing the ones who keep asking me the most, I give them a small and simple assignment. If they’re able to do it...and do it well, then I give them a chance. For me it’s more important for them to show me they are dedicated to put the time and effort into a task, however small it may be, than how good they are with following up and being persistent.

Awesome article, Derek. Short. To the point. Powerful.

Eye opening for me.

Thank you.

Feedback:
"but unofficially, they do." How do you know?

From asking specific people? Rubbing shoulders? From keeping your ear to the ground? Osmosis? Does the subject come up at business lunches?

Thanks again

The squeaky wheel gets the grease

"Patience and persistence separates you from the rest, and shows how much you care." never been more precise. I love people who are eager to fight for their wins!
BUT - three times is too much. People get discouraged after some time and it can show a bad picture of the receiver. Sure, it's a way of work and organize things, but not everyone feels good with following-up that many times.
Benjamin has made a good point on it that it could push away people.

Great article and comments too. I think after the first email, getting through to talk to someone is critical. They need to hear the desire in your voice to establish contact and build a relationship. The question is, is this person someone I can work with? I think of trying to be that person whenever I contact someone.

The only thing missing from the story here, is how many times this publicist kicked her own but when she realized several artist she would have killed to have worked with, moved on to great things without her, due to her unique approach. The record industry worked a lot like that in the 80's....until some guy named Derek started a company, & flipped everything on it's head. Now a lot of those "gate keepers" are selling used car's. Funny how that works, eh?
Thank you Derek, for NOT being like that publicist from NY!

Love the idea!!

thanks for Sharing Derek.

Seems there are two things here:

First, the sender may well be utterly convinced they're coming from a place of integrity (albeit perhaps misplaced). Putting them right, swiftly, is kind and is probably a one personal sentence communication v. sifting/shifting from one in box to the next (not screen 'green')! But, hell yeah, follow up if necessary! While the sender is waiting in vain for your response, what messages are they transmitting? Risk isn't addressed.

Second - and may be more importantly - it's a mismatch with 'Marketing is being considerate' on the part of the recipient. I've hung on, followed up three times, only to THEN get a 'no' or a may be, it's not close enough to what I deliver type e-mail'... Get the reasoning, and pre-selection but I think I'd try find alternative ways to deal with the overwhelm - like you have! Thanks.

All well and good, but the problem these days is no one takes the time to get back to you. This is a constant source of frustration for me. Especially when you're dealing with people that requested that you contact them. Equally as frustrating are people that you are trying to give business or assistance to and they just fail to respond. I'm a fairly busy guy. I've got a regular day job, I have my own mobile DJ business, and I'm a singer-songwriter with a band that plays locally. On a good (light) day, I still get at least 30 emails. Add to that the fact that I can't always access or respond to emails while I'm at my day job. STILL, there's RARELY been a time when I've failed to respond to someone's email or voice message within 24 hours. Even if it's just to email or call them back and say "Hey, I got your message. I'm super busy right now, but I'll get back to you once I have time to take a breath." It takes about 20 seconds to fire off a reply email like that. Yet, very few people make the time or effort to do that.

I'm 100% with you on the need to follow up with folks. So, even if you didn't respond when someone originally reached out to you, I believe you have an obligation to do so when you receive a follow-up from that person. For me personally, if I send you a message and you don't respond and then I send you a follow-up message and you don't respond. Well, sorry pal, I'm done with you. You're not worth my time or effort. Life is short. I got things to do. ;-)

I'm not cold hearted.

Totally agree. Similar system I used when folks sent me voice over demos. If they quit contacting me with just one email, then either I'm not worth their time or their demo isn't worth the time. Too many folks quit before they even get started.

my exact attitude too in dealing with untimely (sometimes overbearing) emails from people
the follow-up is essential and crucial to understand someone's (intrinsic)motivation, intention and focus
i guess selling 'shit' is easy...however "selling" who you really are seems ever more difficult
thanks for the share
cheers,boblee

That was especially helpful. For me and probably lots of other folks, "following up ";feels like pestering. You have given me a totally new perspectibe. Thanks.

There is several stories in the bible that confirms this approach, keep pestering someone long enough and they will give you what you want just to shut you up and get rid of you.

Everyone cares about his or her own music. The last part of the sentence is a disconnect from the subject. Patience and persistence that separates you from the one's who believe in the song they wrote. It has nothing to do about how much you care...I would like to see it expounded to match the subject. I.E. "and shows how much you want to succeed."; or "and shows the recipient how much you believe in what you have sent."
JMO (Just my opinion). Working in news print for 30 years.

I always refer to follow-up as that which separates the professionals from everyone else.

But, I have to say the email system this person uses sounds like a lot of work tracking things. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Okay, now suppose EVERYONE takes this advice and, as a general rule, bombard people with repeated emails (or phone calls or... contacts) because they now KNOW that the only way to reach someone is to so "how much they care." using the methods suggested.

My observation is trivial, but if word got out that this was the ONLY way to get someone's attention then essentially everyone would use the method. Then what?

So I don't quite see the point of publicizing it. It could be counterproductive....

Peter Tennenbaum (who has NOT read the other comments as I have limits on MY time!)

I HATE THIS, but...
I see me doing this with my wife. The more she pesters me, the quicker I do the thing she is pestering me about. I feel that the less important things she won't follow up on, but the things she really wants to get done will cause her to follow up constantly... so I do those things.
But I hate it when people follow up too often with me.
Wow.

Squeaky cog gets the oil ! ... maybe.

Hmm jury is out in this approach. Fine line between pestering and persavearance.

Cool. A contract AND a restraining order!

Derek— I notice you took this advice to heart, sending five different articles and therefore reaching my REAL inbox.

Derek,

You are amazing in more ways than one.

One of the best bit about you is brevity.

Look forward to hearing to your next email.

If you are ever in London, would love to take you for a coffee for 30-min. No big deal or fancy stuff; just a simple Starbucks or may be a family coffee shop, if I can find one in Mayfair (Bond Street / Oxford Circus).

All that just to show my admiration in a simple way.

Cheers,
Kunal

Hi Derek
Thanks for these articles. I always look forward to reading them. They are so helpful and informative.
Thank you for all that you do.
Joe D

I think the important words here are "persistence" and "patience." I need to know the person writing me is genuinely interested in keeping in touch. A personal note, rather than a generic one "Hey there, thought I would JUST drop you a line...") doesn't catch my attention. Make me notice you!

I know this but don't do it enough. This has been a good reminder for me.

Hey Derek. I just put you in my SPAM folder!

This is awesome. I like that story. And it reminds me about my practice of follow up, but most importantly being always friendly and aware of the fact that these people have just a ton to do's.

I had a manager for a time who told me - you're not paying me a % to contact presenters, you're paying me to contact them repeatedly and stay in their faces 'til they respond. That was a lightbulb moment.

As an artist who also presents a songwriters circle concert series, I am inundated with requests. And I can testify, it's simply the way it goes - generally it's the most tenacious ones who end up getting reviewed.

The real ethical quandary are the ones who are relentless and demand a response - and are simply not strong enough, and I sense, never will be. Do I tell them to keep writing for their own pleasure but focus on a different career? I can't bear to do that (though culling the herd could be a good thing!) but I do swear at their name when it comes into my in-box again! Some people need to spend more time getting better at what they do and less time selling it. That was the one upside of era of the gate-keepers when I started in the 70's - if you weren't deemed good enough by a record label or manager, you simply didn't get your music out there. But I digress...

When marketing a song or album or tour, I tend to blanket so many targets - I think it's a great idea to really research the ones that stick out the most, send out a smaller net, and really go after those ones, having spent at least some time learning about what they do and how we might be able to provide some content they'd be interested in. Coming at it this way, it shifts the mental paradigm of bugging/pestering them to reaching out consistently because we care about them and what they do. Thanks for helping with that shift, Derek. Lights going on, wheels turning, every time I read one of your articles.

This is so true! I always feel like I am bugging people and being annoying by asking more than once or twice BUT it is only when people bug me that I respond. Double standard I need to think about! Thanks for the thought!

She certainly had her own process and I guess it worked for her. But thank goodness there are others who understand that it means so much to receive a simple acknowledgement. Sometimes the simplest acknowledgement does wonders...whether it be an Artist or any job seeker...everyone wants to feel that they exist.

*How* one follows up is also a determinate for me :)

This is bullshit. If someone sends something 3 times there’s a reason it’s gettig ignored. The person getting these 3 messages gets annoyed and frustrated. They don’t have time. This article is a unique person with a unique method; but I disagree his this as the solicitor. This is harassment

Thank you. This is so simple yet so powerful.

Particularly useful, this is, in a lot of other settings as well. (recruitment jumps to mind first)
And just to understand this has been enough. What is it that Tim says?
"...don't ascribe to malice what can be explained by busy-ness.."?

Actually I get where she's coming from. There's nothing worse than dealing with someone who lacks drive and passion for what they do

Derek, I'm inclined to agree with the general sentiment of many of your responders. That her filing system for responding is not very fair. Follow up is good yes, one or twice but after that I move on. My basic principal is that EVERYONES TIME is important - including my own. Time is precious. When I get a call relating to giving a lesson on an instrument I don't play or a drum skin to change that I don't do. I always will return the call and refer them to someone if I can. In our "modern" world anyone could be busy all the time. I think it's unfortunate that that kind of filing technique has become expectable. Who knows how much fine music could have been published from the people that didn't follow up 3 times? Of course that might be why my music is only famous on my block ~.^)

I have an easy system for myself for follow up - if I really want to work with someone, I'll keep emailing him until he gives me a YES or NO. If he doesn't give a NO or just reply something vague or grey, I'll keep politely following up until a YES is given. I used to send a person 30+ emails in 6 months with this system. I got a YES finally.
This is very wise, and it’s something I really admire about you, Aero ☺ — Derek

Not that I know from my own experience, but I'd say - if one needs a publicist more than a publicist needs her, and that is to be concluded if you know that you have a lot of competition - then yeah! I love the publicist's approach and the fact that you shared this story Derek. It's so awesome the publicist put it so honestly and bluntly.

She is merely trying to survive the flood and the artist surely will always benefit practicing tenacity, showing up for her self and not acting like a special snowflake, as special as she is.

There are a lot of average people but there are also a lot of talents. So if you're in the talents pool you need to be thinking - what is everybody else doing - and do the "unthinkable", advocate for yourself, be proactive, asking more than once...

Then again, I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just irritated by people saying "I've tried" and "the world doesn't get me" when they actually simply put the ball into someone else's hands and left it there. That's ok if you want anyone else but you to run your destiny. You may or may not need this publicist. In any case - find the way to shine.

Great success to all the talents out there! Never leave it to the "destiny"!

Damn it Derek! I really needed to read this today to get me moving on something I've been putting off. But I sure didn't want to actually read it ;)

Have a great weekend,

Sam

when flinching at the thought of "bothering" or "nagging" by repeated follow-ups, I am encouraged by the wisdom, power and truth of your closing sentence. "Patience and persistence separates you from the rest, and shows how much you care." I'll go with that!

Like most readers here, I've heard the exact opposite. A follow-up is fine, but if they're not responding, they're not interested. However, I haven't tested the theory personally. Worth a go I guess.

There are also more creative ways of getting someone's attention rather than continuously sending email or calling. Heck, start a flash mob concert outside of their office ;) or just figure out how to get on the lineup of places you know they attend. Be undeniable.

This is something that, as I learn about building communities and networks, is crucial to maintaining (and pruning!) nodes in one's professional and personal networks.

This post, however, would save people $30 on books that try to say this in a very long fashion.

I perfectly agree with that.
Just yesterday, after two emails without response with 1 week of time between them, I followed up on Skype chat with the guy, asking if he saw my message.
He said: I didn't get any new message from you.
And it is about an important partnership we're discussing.

With all today's filters, spam, lack of attention, lack of time, etc, it's perfectly fine to follow up time and time again.
If you don't want to hear from me, there are a couple suggestions: you can just reply and tell me to fuckoff; block me; tag me as "spam"; create a filter in gmail skipping the inbox and going directly to trash with my email.

Lots of times, they don't receive your message.

When I really care about something or someone to meet, my follow up can be even more drastic: I just booked a flight to the other side of the world and going to invite for coffee. I did it lot of times and it worked perfectly.

In this digitally crowded world full of kids just playing behind a keyboard, how could you stand above the noise, otherwise?
Bots don't jump on planes, so far...

Good post, Derek!

isnt this a bit like Streets & Blocks what works for one doesn't work for the other.

It certainly pays to be persistent, so long as you're always polite about it. This can also apply to writers who are trying to get something published, be it a book or a magazine article.

Thanks for your thoughts and for sharing this lesson. ☺

Derek, I completely agree. I'm very much like that although I don't have the followers or fans. I've wasted a lot of time and resources in pursuit of comfort and entertainment, this past year (perhaps a bit before that) I've purposefully sought of challenge and discomfort in order to grow. I've dedicated all of my time to building skillsets and learning new things, so I'm a very busy person with a lot on my plate....I really don't have the time for anyone who's not teaching me, learning with me, or working with me. It's not from an egotistical standpoint, it's from a disciplinary and strong work ethic standpoint. Life is relatively short and no one knows when it is exactly their time to go for the most part so I'm focusing all of it on the things I want to accomplish. I've wasted too much time in my life and I'm no longer tolerating that.

Keep up the good and informative writing, I've always liked what you've written dating back from the first time I read your book "Anything You Want" in 2015.

Derek,

Again - indispensable advice for those working in the soundtrack arena. The reach-out, connection, follow-up and overall communication to submit music to music supervisors, libraries and the such is key if you're going to get your music heard and bought!

All of these topics are different, but so related and overview the aspects of people, relationships, communication, understanding yourself and the people you deal with in every way. Those that do, end up being successful or more successful then others. Actors have it the worst and learn or die trying that it isn't personal when they get rejected. It's because it wasn't a fit, or they weren't what they were looking for and on and on, vs. they were not good enough or a bad actor. The same really goes for musicians and all artists - we need to understand the business, what the folks on the other end have going on and know how and what it takes to present yourself and your art in a practical way that works for the 'system', their process and giving them the respect and due course in order for it to work.

Interesting concept.

This one ties in perfectly with the one you wrote about remaining creative at all times. Generating creative solutions that get you to your goal is the thing to persistently do. Persistently creative. Sometimes persistent follow-up with one particular person is the right thing to do. Sometimes it probably isn't. The answer to the question of what to do from moment to moment, day to day, person to person, situation to situation... is just more of the challenging art of it all.

I think this is more about the "knowing" of the musician. Persistence is an indirect result of "knowing" your value. Knowing is not cerebral like believing. It's embodied, non-cerebral. We are in a age of going beyond believing.

Jung articulates this at 1:30ish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOxlZm2AU4o So the example Derek shows that success comes from "knowing" and thus defies obstruction. Did you know....the word MAGIC is used twice as much today as it was in 1800, and the word IMAGINATION is used half as much today.

"We do not need magic to change the world, we carry all the power we need within ourselves already. We can imagine better." J.K. Rowling

My wondering is this...do you KNOW (not believe) the power of what you imagine? (which is also to say...do you know the power of your mental images...) and do you bring them to life with your life?

It seems a little cruel at first, but sometimes we do need some ways to lessen our burden and make our lives easier and more effcient.
Maybe I will try this methord someday if I really have so many things to handle.

Genious. Thx for giving me a push I needed! This is a business after all. Thx so much.

My class of music does not work this way but I could use this system in other ways and think it is a very good system to use.

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I was also shocked as I read about the box bumping but your publicist makes a great, insightful point that also translates across so many other areas in life. Your story is short, succinct and powerful. Thank you, Derek!
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Hi Derek,

I am glad you are writing a book on the subject of Marketing your music. Excellent idea!

I like the tale you tell of 'persistence' here. However, over many years of trying to market songs, and sending them to Artists or their Producers we think would be a good 'fit' for the song.... I have NEVER encountered an Artist or a Label,etc that would even open a package (back when we could send CDs) if it came to them without an Agent or an Attorney.... MAYBE a 'song plugger' could get them to listen (because a good Song Plugger would have a relationship with 'them').

Unsolicited???? Fuggetaboutit! These people seems so afraid that if THEY wrote a song similar to the one I sent, or, they have an artist that might have a similar song, then, they could get sued for copyright.

The other thing in the story that doesn't add up (for me) is that a busy Music Publicist would even answer the phone from an artist calling them. Nor, even reply to an email that might have been sent as a follow up to sending an 'unsolicited' song. So, does she move the songs from box to box based on Voicemail messages left for her? Because that's all I ever get is the ability to leave a VM... that is, if you can even get through the 'guard dog' that is also known as the receptionist (or, in some cases, the "Assistant').

In your book, if you can put forth suggestions on how to get your Music heard and considered by Publicists, Producers, A & R, Labels, etc... that would be invaluable!

Cheers! Linda

This is where I have failed at times. I think it's because I think, if I follow up too much, they will think I'm bugging them and get annoyed with me. Judging from this article, I am probably wrong.

👍👍👍eye opener ... thanks Derik
Diane

very counterintuitive for me. I will try this with the next few people I reach out to and don't hear from and check results

Love it. I should do this to people trying to sell me stuff.

As always, really unique articles. Love reading your work Derek.

I look forward to your new book. Let me know if I can help in any way(request 1).

Maybe higher quality contact is better than persistent contact.

I loved reading this, but also liked the comments. I think persistence is a key to success. If you happen to annoy someone by following up too mush they probably were not going to do business with you anyways. Good stuff.

Hmmm.

I agree that people who receive a high volume of emails need a logical system in place that helps them effectively weed out multiple items competing for their time and attention. Especially when those competing items will vary greatly in terms of the value they can potentially provide to the busy recipient.

However, I disagree that this method of weeding is most effective, in this particular instance.

Caring and passion are good, but they're not in any way the top criteria that will be considered when deciding whether someone should be granted a record deal. So, why come to the table with the presumption that 1) the people contacting you might not actually care about what they're doing and, therefore, you need proof of caring (what?); and 2) email-based persistence is an uncorrupted measure of caring, in an alternate reality where caring would actually matter?

Stated simply: What good is persistence when someone's music sucks balls?

I'm not saying persistence isn't important. I'm saying that this isn't a well-thought out way to both reduce email volume while ensuring that the emails that do make it your desk are the ones that are actually worthy of your attention. (Not to mention, tracking the number of contacts that have been made and arranging everything into its appropriate folder or box? Colossal waste of time on top of a strategy that already doesn't have effective quality control checks in place!) Being perceived as spam, as having issues with boundaries, and even being subjected to unconscious gender biases (men as go-getters, women as bossy nags) corrupts the validity of this process. It's not measuring what you think it's measuring.

What would I do instead?

For every request for my time, I'd make a request of their time. In this context, that could mean writing/performing music I want in addition to what they want me to listen to.

In my experience, that significantly cuts down the number of contacts while also weeding out people who are either lazy or who aren't at a point in their lives where they're ready (yet) to hit the ground running. A better volume/quality control check, by far--with a focus on traits that are actually relevant when working with me.

-jj

With this story, you taught me a very important lesson, I desperately need him,,thank you derek

Excellent (These except are so good. I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned from your experience, wisdom and advice)

Persistence pays

These were what i had in my mind:
1. Being part of customer/sales support for a while, i was taught not to contact more than twice: first with the actual message, and the second time with a follow-up. Else, it's just spam.
2. Then i've seen some jobs that do require constant follow up: if a person out-sources their work, then repeated follow-up is required if the receiver is not responsive.

But you've presented a totally new perspective. Taking from (1) where the receiver is not obliged to respond, but taking from (2) where you want to get your work done.

Although i've seen busy people (un-officially) do this so many times, i didn't come across it put in this way. I always felt that why should i waste my time/effort on someone who doesn't have time to spare for me. Now, you've got me thinking…; though i haven't reached a conclusion yet.

Clever! Thanks for sharing!

In my experience, following up after making a professional contact or after an interview increases your chances of building up your network or landing the job. Employers meet so many prospective candidates each day that just one interpersonal meeting is usually not enough to make them remember you. So emailing them after the meeting helps significantly with building personal relationships and leaving a more lasting impression.

Chase Levine
Tulane University

Thank you Derek,

For another thought-provoking insight! It reminds me of one of my favorite sayings "Be persuasive, be persistent and be patient", I guess that's what grit is about!

With my best regards,
Paul

PS. I still pull out from time to time that album I bought from you - Alabama Chicken!!

I think her approach is very reasonable, because she accepts thousands of messages every day, which is undoubtedly the most time-saving. But for the average student, we receive a limited amount of mail every day, so we should reply to the mail more quickly. But if we send emails to some famous people, if they don't respond, we can send them multiple times, and impress them with persistence.

Hi Derek!!
Question -
As an musician/artist producing quality work and trying to plug it to a label, publicist or venue. How do you deal with rejection without taking it personally and feeling like people don’t care if they don’t reply?
And when do you stop contacting the person? After 3,4 or 5 times?

Thank you for sharing all these! 😎

When I was at Berklee, I got a part time job at a CVS. I filled out an application, and the next week I went back in to see if they had reviewed it yet. The manager interviewed me, and hired me on the spot. He told me he hired me because I came back in following up on my app. It was a life lesson that I remembered throughout my career. I read an article years ago, about interviewing for jobs, and one thing they suggested was get the persons card with an email. Also pay attention to little details. For example, I interviewed for a job at Fox News Channel. While interviewing with the HR rep, she mentioned how screwed up her train was that morning, as she was 5 min late for the interview. I got her card, and sent her a thank you email, and hoped that her commute home that evening was a little bit better. It was a small detail, but made the thank you seem more personal. She recomended me for the job, which I got.
Wow! Great examples! Thank you. — Derek

Make music again.

I think the moral to this story is "whatever works for you" AND do you sleep at night

Great post! I think for the other posters, a distinction needs to be made.

The idea is not simply that you follow up (i.e. to make sure that the person considers what YOU want), but that you follow up with more ways you can help that person. Appeal to the other person's self-interest, in each follow-up.

Consider, for example, the difference between Person A, who follows up to see if high-level CEO is interested in their product, and Person B, who follows up with solutions or gifts or helpful articles that relate to specific pain points the person has. Person A may be persistent, and it may impress the CEO, but Person B is actually being helpful, and will most likely be welcome.