211 - How To Handle This Wild Job Market
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Episode 211
211 - How To Handle This Wild Job Market
You know what's happening out there in the job market, right? IT. IS. CUH-RAY-ZEEE!!!
The supply and demand situation boiled over and average salaries for new jobs are leapfrogging previous norms. What should you do about this?
Bob and Josh talk through ways to approach this unprecedented event from both sides of the table, as an employee wondering if I should jump ship and as a leader who is managing a team of folks that know what's happening out there. What are you doing about this situation? Let's discuss!!!
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Transcript
I did say soliloquy
Bob: 00:00:02effortlessly.
Bob: 00:00:04You didn't.
Bob: 00:00:05What do you mean?
Bob: 00:00:05I hope it, I hope it hurts.
Bob: 00:00:07No soliloquy.
Bob: 00:00:08I hope it.
Bob: 00:00:09Oh, say it five more times.
Bob: 00:00:10Pull that out of your ass.
Bob: 00:00:11Just keep pulling it out.
Bob: 00:00:13Eventually
Josh: 00:00:14soliloquy to more.
Bob: 00:00:16Are you practicing in?
Josh: 00:00:18And the last one, this is a little gray.
Josh: 00:00:20Thank you.
Josh: 00:00:22Are you no pain?
Josh: 00:00:23Are you paying?
Josh: 00:00:23All right.
Josh: 00:00:24No pain.
Josh: 00:01:01Bob, the job market is insane right now.
Josh: 00:01:04Did you know that?
Josh: 00:01:04
Bob:
00:01:05
I've noticed that well, there's what I see that what the hashtag great.
Bob: 00:01:09Uh, what resignation?
Bob: 00:01:11Yeah, so there's the resignation stuff going on, right?
Bob: 00:01:14People are getting more more negotiations, I guess, with, with working from home.
Bob: 00:01:19Right.
Bob: 00:01:19And, and, you know, perks of flexibility.
Bob: 00:01:23I have wondered about salary.
Bob: 00:01:24So salary is going through the roof as
Josh: 00:01:26well.
Josh: 00:01:27Definitely going through the roof, the average that I'm
Josh: 00:01:31seeing in my limited view.
Josh: 00:01:32So your mileage may vary and see it greater or smaller, depending on where our
Josh: 00:01:36listeners are is like a 20 to 30 K bump just in base salaries for existing roles.
Bob: 00:01:44So in the past, in the
Josh: 00:01:46past year, six months, so your max is really ramped up.
Josh: 00:01:50So this year, yeah, this year in 2021, it really ramped
Bob: 00:01:53
Bob:
00:01:55
Is that just competition, driving pricing?
Josh: 00:01:57I believe so, given that you can now get, so like, there are people that have
Josh: 00:02:01left the company that I'm at, that are working for a California based company,
Josh: 00:02:06remotely getting a California salary.
Josh: 00:02:09Oh, wow.
Bob: 00:02:10Because that's so okay.
Bob: 00:02:12I'm not disagreeing with you, but I bet it's multi-factored and I bet geography.
Bob: 00:02:17
Josh:
00:02:17
because it doesn't
Bob: 00:02:18matter as much now.
Bob: 00:02:18Yeah.
Bob: 00:02:19But, but some companies are adjusting their salaries though.
Bob: 00:02:22Yeah.
Bob: 00:02:23Some companies, some California companies are adjusting their
Bob: 00:02:25salaries based on your geography.
Bob: 00:02:27Some of them are getting slammed for that process.
Bob: 00:02:29Right.
Bob: 00:02:29And some of them are, are not doing that.
Bob: 00:02:31Okay.
Bob: 00:02:32Yeah.
Bob: 00:02:33
Josh:
00:02:33
I'm not sure of all of the macro economic vehicles that
Josh: 00:02:38have created this situation.
Josh: 00:02:40What I want to make sure is that our listeners know what's happening and have
Josh: 00:02:46an opportunity to thoughtfully think about how this plays into any decision
Josh: 00:02:52that they might make, because you might be finding out or hearing about friends
Josh: 00:02:56or coworkers that just left the job that they've been at for five years.
Josh: 00:03:00And they got an instant 30, 35 K.
Josh: 00:03:04Right.
Josh: 00:03:05You know?
Josh: 00:03:05So, so that should lead you to question, what should I do?
Josh: 00:03:09What's the, what's the right answer.
Josh: 00:03:11I've even seen people that have left and come right back.
Bob: 00:03:16Oh really?
Bob: 00:03:16Yeah.
Bob: 00:03:17And why, what just enemy random sampling.
Bob: 00:03:20Right?
Bob: 00:03:20So what, what was the general feeling that,
Josh: 00:03:23you know, they left for the money and realize that the money
Josh: 00:03:28didn't mean everything and they appreciated the company that they
Josh: 00:03:31were with and decided to go back.
Josh: 00:03:33I don't know if they came back at that higher pay rate or something.
Josh: 00:03:37I assume so, but I'm not sure
Bob: 00:03:39probably negotiated something.
Bob: 00:03:41Yeah.
Bob: 00:03:41Right.
Bob: 00:03:42On the return, but they came back.
Bob: 00:03:43So something was going on in there in the dynamic.
Bob: 00:03:46So, so what do you want to, you want to just explore?
Bob: 00:03:49Yeah.
Josh: 00:03:49To me, I, I, I want to look at it from two angles.
Josh: 00:03:53One is someone who knows this or is hearing this for the first
Josh: 00:03:57time and says, holy crap, I should leave my current job and go get.
Josh: 00:04:03More money somewhere else.
Josh: 00:04:06Not so fast, I think is the message that I want to send is be thoughtful and
Josh: 00:04:11think about all of the variables that are out there that make a job great.
Josh: 00:04:16Then I will look at it from the other side of, if you are a leader of people, right?
Josh: 00:04:21What are ways you can, should respond to what's happening in the market?
Josh: 00:04:25So starting with oh, okay.
Bob: 00:04:27Yeah.
Bob: 00:04:27Oh, I like the two for a second.
Bob: 00:04:29Yeah.
Bob: 00:04:29All right.
Josh: 00:04:30So as a developer, QA engineer, scrum master, whatever is someone
Josh: 00:04:35on your typical scrum team and you hear this and like maybe one of your
Josh: 00:04:40friends just, just left to go to a job and their pay bump was crazy.
Josh: 00:04:44And they're like, dude, you got to do this.
Josh: 00:04:47What should you do?
Josh: 00:04:48What should you think about?
Bob: 00:04:50I think there's some, I mean, general reactions to me is I'm you
Bob: 00:04:54and I have different generations for hiring and staying and things like.
Bob: 00:04:58I think one thing is it used to be staying with the company was a prime directive.
Bob: 00:05:02Yeah.
Bob: 00:05:03Right.
Bob: 00:05:03It was important.
Bob: 00:05:04Like being a job, hopper was a bad thing.
Bob: 00:05:06I think that's probably flipped nowadays.
Bob: 00:05:09Right.
Bob: 00:05:09So, so loyalty and the worry that it, you know, sort of be how your,
Bob: 00:05:16the perception is has changed.
Bob: 00:05:17So that I think that should be like a very minor consideration.
Bob: 00:05:21Yeah.
Bob: 00:05:21Right.
Bob: 00:05:21Maybe a little bit of a consideration, like, like hopping around,
Bob: 00:05:25staying somewhat placed less than a year and hopping around.
Bob: 00:05:28I saw something the other day, someone tweeted that there were people who were.
Bob: 00:05:34I forgot there was a name for it where they took two because they're virtual.
Bob: 00:05:38Oh yeah.
Bob: 00:05:38They took two full-time jobs.
Bob: 00:05:40Right.
Bob: 00:05:40They were getting paid for two full time jobs and they were
Bob: 00:05:43looking for a third full-time job.
Bob: 00:05:45And it, but I think, I think that might catch up with you, right?
Bob: 00:05:48Yeah.
Bob: 00:05:49Like staying somewhere like playing games or being dishonest.
Bob: 00:05:53Yeah.
Bob: 00:05:54Or hopping around every three months or something like that.
Bob: 00:05:56We'll probably come back to haunt you from a career, but
Josh: 00:05:59just like a life perspective, just wearing
Bob: 00:06:02yourself down.
Bob: 00:06:02Yeah.
Bob: 00:06:03I don't, I think character matters a little bit.
Bob: 00:06:06Right.
Bob: 00:06:06Loyalty does still matter character how you can maybe I'll
Bob: 00:06:10call it how you conduct yourself.
Bob: 00:06:12Like yeah.
Bob: 00:06:13You know, you know what I mean?
Bob: 00:06:15But I wasn't trying to argue that I was trying to flip it and say,
Bob: 00:06:17don't worry about that stuff so much.
Bob: 00:06:19Right?
Bob: 00:06:19Yeah.
Josh: 00:06:20Again, we're from different generations.
Josh: 00:06:22So we see it a little bit.
Bob: 00:06:23Absolutely different.
Bob: 00:06:24Absolutely.
Bob: 00:06:25you know, what else from a, I put up picky guy.
Bob: 00:06:29we've talked about this before.
Bob: 00:06:30I think you remember vaguely.
Josh: 00:06:33So what I'd like to talk about is a thought process I could take as a
Josh: 00:06:38person in the seat to figure out, okay.
Josh: 00:06:42Is it time for me to go find something else or do I stay here if I stay here?
Josh: 00:06:47Should I talk to my boss?
Josh: 00:06:48How do I talk about the pay difference?
Josh: 00:06:50The pay gap that's out there.
Josh: 00:06:52What,
Bob: 00:06:53before we go there though.
Bob: 00:06:54Yeah.
Bob: 00:06:54And then shoot it down.
Bob: 00:06:56But the icky guy has 400.
Josh: 00:06:59Okay.
Josh: 00:06:59So that is a Venn diagram.
Josh: 00:07:00That's up on Bob's
Bob: 00:07:01screen.
Bob: 00:07:02It's a Venn diagram.
Bob: 00:07:03It's called an Iki gai icky guy.
Bob: 00:07:06It's a Japanese metaphor.
Bob: 00:07:08And it talks about like, you're trying to get to the essence of
Bob: 00:07:11what, what should I be doing?
Bob: 00:07:13And it has four dimensions.
Bob: 00:07:14It's doing what you love, it's doing what you're good at.
Bob: 00:07:18It's doing what you can be paid for, which is what we're talking about.
Bob: 00:07:22And then doing what the world needs, like making a difference in the world.
Bob: 00:07:27So if I put on an icky guy mindset, then this is one quarter, right.
Bob: 00:07:33Money is one quarter.
Bob: 00:07:34And so what I'm trying to suggest to medic hazards, and it may
Bob: 00:07:38not land in, shoot me down.
Bob: 00:07:40This may, maybe an old guy, not a Nike guy, but an old guy discussion.
Bob: 00:07:44But I think it's important.
Bob: 00:07:45Like, do you love what you do, right?
Bob: 00:07:47Are you good at what you do?
Bob: 00:07:48Like you could jump for 20 K and get fired because you aren't self-aware
Bob: 00:07:54of what you're good at you.
Bob: 00:07:55Like, you could jump into a fire, right.
Bob: 00:07:58From a skillset perspective.
Bob: 00:07:59Right.
Bob: 00:07:59So sort of being self-aware as part of this.
Bob: 00:08:03I think nowadays generationally people, you can, you can get.
Bob: 00:08:07You get benefits or you get good feelings.
Bob: 00:08:10I know money matters, but working for like the, the gates foundation, like
Bob: 00:08:15doing stuff that affects people's lives, might it's, it's intangible from a
Bob: 00:08:21money point of view, but it's giving you, it's giving you solid feelings.
Bob: 00:08:25Like I'm contributing back.
Bob: 00:08:26I'm not just, I'm not just sucking money from the world.
Bob: 00:08:29Well, so I'm wondering if an icky guy view, like running it through
Bob: 00:08:34four lenses, instead of just the money lens would be helpful.
Josh: 00:08:38So I'll, I'll provide a quick retort,
Bob: 00:08:43so it's not going to land.
Bob: 00:08:44That's fine.
Bob: 00:08:45
Josh:
00:08:45
want to make it quick so we can get on the other stuff.
Josh: 00:08:47I think the number of places where you really do feel good type stuff
Josh: 00:08:54is pretty low companies that really.
Josh: 00:08:57I have complete intent to make a difference in the world.
Josh: 00:09:01I think unfortunately there are very few, right.
Josh: 00:09:04You look at some of the more successful companies that are out there and people
Josh: 00:09:10like to invest in the boring things.
Josh: 00:09:14That's what investors like, because they know what's going to be there.
Josh: 00:09:17They know what's always going to exist and maybe it was boring.
Josh: 00:09:20Somebody who didn't.
Josh: 00:09:21So there's a, there's a lot of companies are out there that
Josh: 00:09:25build software just to make money.
Josh: 00:09:27And yeah, it makes the user's life better and easier because they can
Josh: 00:09:32do it on the software instead of a spreadsheet or a piece of paper,
Josh: 00:09:37but net making the world better.
Josh: 00:09:40I think there's unfortunately very
Bob: 00:09:41few there.
Bob: 00:09:42So is there a lens then beyond I want to make as much money as I
Bob: 00:09:47can and get as much prestige as I can and fill my ego as I can.
Bob: 00:09:51So gimme, gimme, gimme feed me, feed me, feed me.
Bob: 00:09:54Is there a lens that.
Bob: 00:09:57Is there any other lens other than that, that, that people should be looking at?
Bob: 00:10:00Yeah.
Bob: 00:10:00Well, to me, I, and I'm not being yet.
Josh: 00:10:03Yeah.
Josh: 00:10:03Yeah, no, there's, there's, there's reasons why people desire to make
Josh: 00:10:09money that maybe isn't just pure greed.
Josh: 00:10:12Okay.
Josh: 00:10:13Maybe they're trying to build and grow a family.
Josh: 00:10:15They want to adopt, they want to be able to give back.
Josh: 00:10:18They want to be able to do time
Bob: 00:10:20money.
Bob: 00:10:21my question is it's a mindset.
Bob: 00:10:22
Bob:
00:10:23
Bob:
00:10:23
I'm not anti-money or mindset.
Bob: 00:10:25is there another, is it multi-faceted or is that the primary lens
Bob: 00:10:30that we should be talking about?
Bob: 00:10:31
Josh:
00:10:32
it depends on your point in your career.
Bob: 00:10:35That is a factor in the lucky guy.
Bob: 00:10:37Right.
Josh: 00:10:38That's what I've seen is that my primary focus has shifted over
Josh: 00:10:43the decades that I've been in mine.
Bob: 00:10:45
Bob:
00:10:46
So I use it.
Bob: 00:10:47So in the early phases of my career, yeah, my achy guy was very much about paid for.
Bob: 00:10:53And good at, and a little bit of love.
Josh: 00:10:56I even did things I wasn't good at.
Bob: 00:10:59Right.
Bob: 00:11:00So there's, self-awareness comes into play, right?
Bob: 00:11:02Like what, what are you good at?
Bob: 00:11:04What are your strengths and what are your weaknesses?
Bob: 00:11:05Okay.
Bob: 00:11:05My, my icky guy he's shifted.
Josh: 00:11:07Okay.
Josh: 00:11:08I, I, I intentionally took a new role in something that I never had done before.
Josh: 00:11:13I bet on myself.
Josh: 00:11:14I thought I could do it because I viewed it as a stepping
Josh: 00:11:17stone to where I wanted to get.
Josh: 00:11:18Yeah.
Bob: 00:11:19So why don't we stay there?
Bob: 00:11:20Why don't we stay in that demographic?
Bob: 00:11:22Because you and I are probably,
Josh: 00:11:24we are old.
Josh: 00:11:25We are old.
Josh: 00:11:26So, so yeah.
Josh: 00:11:26So you're in the first five, seven years a year.
Josh: 00:11:31
Josh:
00:11:32
Career.
Josh: 00:11:32One of the things that my very first boss told me that I regret valuing as
Josh: 00:11:39he instructed me to do was the value of the people that you work with.
Josh: 00:11:44And he really tried, tried to get me to, to place a monetary value.
Josh: 00:11:48On that his was $15,000.
Josh: 00:11:51He thought beating on a team of people that he liked was worth $15,000.
Josh: 00:11:56And that was 20 plus years ago when that happened.
Josh: 00:12:00But that's how he tried to navigate that was he put a real dollar amount on
Josh: 00:12:04it and he wanted me to buy same thing.
Josh: 00:12:06Did you buy that at that age?
Josh: 00:12:08
Josh:
00:12:09
Yeah, but I do now because I've because I've worked places where
Josh: 00:12:14I didn't like the people and I understood what that felt like.
Josh: 00:12:17And then I've worked places where I love the people and I understood that feeling.
Josh: 00:12:21And that for me means a
Bob: 00:12:24
Bob:
00:12:25
So that's, I'm proposing that we reframe this and say everyone's
Bob: 00:12:29career is in three thirds.
Bob: 00:12:32So first, third, second, third, third, third, right.
Bob: 00:12:35First third is like, so let's say 15 years per third.
Bob: 00:12:38Okay.
Bob: 00:12:38Something like that.
Bob: 00:12:39So that's, that's first, let's just talk about the first 15 years your career.
Bob: 00:12:44Right.
Bob: 00:12:44Which is sort of like, so it's a little bit more than eight.
Bob: 00:12:47I think for that, at least speaking for me and when I was there and
Bob: 00:12:52I think it's still relevant.
Bob: 00:12:53It's you need to be growing as you need to be accelerating and challenging
Bob: 00:12:57yourself as much as you possibly can.
Bob: 00:12:58
Bob:
00:12:59
You need to be somewhat greedy and get well, when, no matter what your paradigm
Bob: 00:13:03is, whether you're a family person or adoptions or whatnot, but that's that
Bob: 00:13:08first third is where you're learning.
Bob: 00:13:10You're gaining critical challenges.
Bob: 00:13:12You're learning a lot challenges, but you're also accelerating.
Bob: 00:13:16Like you may, you may dead end in a accompany very often.
Bob: 00:13:20You, you can be under appreciated in the company.
Bob: 00:13:23So you have to be sort of hopping around, hopping around for new opportunities,
Bob: 00:13:28new challenges and salary acceleration.
Josh: 00:13:31Yeah.
Josh: 00:13:31Yeah.
Josh: 00:13:31And, and in a traditional market, not where there's this like recent, almost
Josh: 00:13:36blind bump that every position gets.
Josh: 00:13:41I think your early decision.
Josh: 00:13:44On roles you take and the salary you accept, define
Josh: 00:13:50what your future south can be.
Bob: 00:13:52The one that's what you're accelerating.
Bob: 00:13:54So you're setting, you're investing the first third.
Bob: 00:13:58If you think about it, this way is investing is, is establishing
Bob: 00:14:01a platform for how to use springboard into the second thing.
Bob: 00:14:04Right?
Bob: 00:14:04Right.
Bob: 00:14:05And the second third is, is probably more, it's still acceleration,
Bob: 00:14:09but sh you're not learning.
Bob: 00:14:11You may be learning different things like technology.
Bob: 00:14:14That's talking about technology.
Bob: 00:14:15You're not going to be learning technology.
Bob: 00:14:17Typically in the, in the next 15 years, you might be learning
Bob: 00:14:21management or leadership or architecture or something like that.
Bob: 00:14:24So it's, it's almost like a springboard springboard for one.
Bob: 00:14:29And then, and then your springboard is going to be, can
Bob: 00:14:31I accelerate in my new persona?
Bob: 00:14:33Yeah.
Bob: 00:14:34Now how good of a leader am I, or how good of an architect am I?
Bob: 00:14:38And, and some people will plateau there and then some people
Bob: 00:14:41accelerate, but you want to sort of accelerate in the first one.
Bob: 00:14:44Is this model working the way?
Bob: 00:14:45Yeah, yeah.
Josh: 00:14:46Yeah.
Josh: 00:14:46It's, it's just that there are roles that I accepted where I, I know I
Josh: 00:14:55could have pushed harder on, on pay.
Josh: 00:14:57And so then my next job and the salary there was based on what I made before.
Josh: 00:15:05So you kind of set the bar pretty early and then you progress off of that
Josh: 00:15:10because that's always a reference point.
Josh: 00:15:12So the,
Bob: 00:15:12the loyalty I had, so I kicked myself looking at the curves today,
Bob: 00:15:18versus when I was curving across those, those three sort of areas, because one,
Bob: 00:15:24I would stay with a company for 3, 4, 5, Seven years and, and they weren't
Bob: 00:15:30accelerating the way I could if I laughed.
Bob: 00:15:32Right.
Bob: 00:15:33And now you can do that.
Bob: 00:15:35So, so I was, I probably, it wasn't my capability.
Bob: 00:15:39It was literally got in my way.
Bob: 00:15:42Right.
Bob: 00:15:43Seeing value in people.
Bob: 00:15:45Got it.
Bob: 00:15:45And got in my way.
Bob: 00:15:46I wish I would've had a today minus.
Bob: 00:15:49Back then.
Bob: 00:15:49I wish I could.
Bob: 00:15:50It wasn't just me though.
Bob: 00:15:51I mean, people wouldn't hire you, right.
Bob: 00:15:54You couldn't navigate that.
Josh: 00:15:55I, I got in trouble from my parents when I said I was living my, my first job.
Josh: 00:16:00They were like, you cannot do that.
Josh: 00:16:02You are making a huge mistake.
Josh: 00:16:03Exactly.
Josh: 00:16:04Go back and get that job.
Josh: 00:16:06And I just said, no, like, this is how I view it as the best
Josh: 00:16:10way to progress my, my career.
Josh: 00:16:12Right.
Josh: 00:16:13Where I want to go.
Josh: 00:16:13Now they, you know, we're teachers.
Josh: 00:16:16Yeah.
Josh: 00:16:16So teachers, you basically sign up with a school and especially seventies,
Josh: 00:16:22eighties, and nineties, right.
Josh: 00:16:23You, you just kind of stayed with that school because that's, you know, and
Josh: 00:16:26especially in that state because of the state retirement and all that stuff.
Josh: 00:16:29So that was a thing you just did.
Josh: 00:16:32But so much has changed where.
Josh: 00:16:35The opportunity is
Bob: 00:16:37limitless.
Bob: 00:16:38Now I do think you have to, you don't want to be lazy with your,
Bob: 00:16:42like I was thinking of vetting the company so I could take this.
Bob: 00:16:45I'm a bouncing ball syndrome and I'm chasing shiny money and things like that.
Bob: 00:16:49And, and I'm not anti that we're talking about being pro that, but I still
Bob: 00:16:54think you have to thoughtfully that thoughtfully interview the companies
Bob: 00:16:59that to thoughtfully filter that because you don't want to go there
Bob: 00:17:03and waste your time and land badly.
Bob: 00:17:04Then maybe you talked about someone coming back.
Bob: 00:17:06Yeah.
Bob: 00:17:07Yeah.
Bob: 00:17:07I don't know what the F yes.
Bob: 00:17:08
Josh:
00:17:09
so both Bob and I are on the page of, you need to
Josh: 00:17:14grab the reins on your career.
Josh: 00:17:16Yeah.
Josh: 00:17:16And go get the salary that you believe that you are worth.
Josh: 00:17:20Go get it and go get it.
Josh: 00:17:22But don't blindly do that.
Josh: 00:17:25Or you have to understand the value of all these.
Josh: 00:17:28Icky guy stuff that's out there.
Josh: 00:17:30I said that properly, correct?
Josh: 00:17:31Yeah.
Bob: 00:17:32Yeah.
Bob: 00:17:32So it's a, it's not, it's just a metaphor it's but it's, but
Bob: 00:17:35again, it's, it's think about like being aware of what am I good at?
Bob: 00:17:40So I would say, you know, if, if, for example, what I'm good at new development,
Bob: 00:17:45but I'm not good at maintenance and there's a maintenance role.
Bob: 00:17:48That's a SAS that pops up.
Bob: 00:17:51That's willing to pay me 35 more K a year, but that's not what I'm good at.
Bob: 00:17:56And, and not only that, I don't like doing it.
Bob: 00:17:58I don't love doing it.
Bob: 00:18:00Then, then the odds of me growing there and accelerating the, or even enjoying
Bob: 00:18:03my job are low, but the money's there.
Bob: 00:18:06Right.
Bob: 00:18:06So, so just go in, I think it's go in eyes wide open and make sure that you're
Bob: 00:18:11really looking at it like a portfolio based like, like a multi-faceted
Bob: 00:18:15decision is what I'm suggesting.
Bob: 00:18:17Does that make sense?
Bob: 00:18:18
Bob:
00:18:18
My, my
Josh: 00:18:18historical advice for folks I've talked to when there was a similar
Josh: 00:18:24role position experience required that paid 20 to 30 K more, it was they're
Josh: 00:18:30paying you more for a reason, right?
Josh: 00:18:31Something sucks over there that they need to compensate you more,
Josh: 00:18:36but that's not true right now.
Josh: 00:18:39Right now they are good companies across the board that have responded
Josh: 00:18:43to this new market that's happening and have decided we're going to be up
Josh: 00:18:48front and we're going to, we're going to get the best and we're gonna do
Josh: 00:18:52that and we're going to pay the best.
Josh: 00:18:54And so now there's a response happening across the entire market
Josh: 00:18:57where that's pooling everybody else
Bob: 00:18:59
Bob:
00:19:00
I still want.
Bob: 00:19:02Fault.
Bob: 00:19:02Yes, I'm not disagree, but there's still a lot of shitty companies in the world.
Bob: 00:19:07And they're shitty in different ways.
Bob: 00:19:10Like Netflix is a wonderful company to work for, but their work Amazon is a
Bob: 00:19:13wonderful company to work for, but their view of people and their view and, you
Bob: 00:19:18know, and, and there's variable pays and all of that, you really want to think of.
Bob: 00:19:23I think you really want to be conscious about who you select and
Bob: 00:19:27interview them and understand what you're in for like, like, like
Bob: 00:19:31what do they expect for the money?
Bob: 00:19:33And it may be hours, or it may be the type of work you do, et cetera.
Bob: 00:19:36I guess what I'm saying is go in eyes wide open.
Josh: 00:19:39So the we'll use a relatively strong word recommendation is you
Josh: 00:19:45owe it to yourself to take a look at the market, given everything that's
Josh: 00:19:48happening right now and leverage it
Bob: 00:19:50and leverage that this as part of your stress, like be aggressive.
Bob: 00:19:53But also eyes wide open.
Bob: 00:19:55I think you're right.
Bob: 00:19:56When you're like interview, we have some episodes where we talk about interviewing
Bob: 00:20:00the company or at least one or two episodes where we've we focused on.
Bob: 00:20:05And it's not just, it's not just asking a few questions.
Bob: 00:20:07You may want to like ask to work with your team for a day.
Bob: 00:20:10Like do an audition.
Bob: 00:20:12Even if they're not doing audition, can I audition?
Bob: 00:20:14can I, you know, can I meet everyone I will be working with?
Bob: 00:20:17Can I, you know, if you could visit the company and I know that's hard
Bob: 00:20:21nowadays, can you look at the culture?
Bob: 00:20:23Like, is it, you know, you CA you, you know, no one will tell you it's
Bob: 00:20:26a sweat shop, but walking around the company, you can actually tell that it's
Josh: 00:20:30right.
Josh: 00:20:30Yeah.
Josh: 00:20:30The, the surprising thing that I've had to coach people on is you should
Josh: 00:20:36not be scared about the situation you are in the driver's seat.
Josh: 00:20:40The demand is much higher than the supply that's out there right now.
Josh: 00:20:44So you are no longer a commodity.
Josh: 00:20:48You now are the thing that's in demand.
Josh: 00:20:50So you have the opportunity to push harder on things like that and be selective.
Josh: 00:20:55
Josh:
00:20:56
Josh:
00:20:56
There was not a shortage.
Bob: 00:20:58That's maybe the thing be really sharp on, on your you're interviewing
Bob: 00:21:02the companies on doing your due diligence and be in the driver's seat.
Bob: 00:21:07Yeah.
Bob: 00:21:07View this
Josh: 00:21:08as you are in a great position because you are, you are
Bob: 00:21:14now can I say something?
Bob: 00:21:15I want to see how you react.
Bob: 00:21:17The other thing, I, I think a lot of people get so people
Bob: 00:21:21can get full of themselves.
Bob: 00:21:22Yeah.
Bob: 00:21:23And people can think they're better than they are.
Bob: 00:21:25And they, and they lack self-awareness.
Bob: 00:21:27So I think as part of, so I I'm suggesting, and I want to see Josh
Bob: 00:21:32is going to keep me honest, but I think it's vetting the company, but
Bob: 00:21:35I also think there's a vet yourself, dammit, and make sure that, you
Bob: 00:21:39know, don't, don't get big headed.
Bob: 00:21:41Maybe I'll leave it.
Bob: 00:21:42Just keep it simple.
Bob: 00:21:43Don't get big headed and get ahead of yourself.
Bob: 00:21:46Make sure.
Bob: 00:21:47Yeah.
Bob: 00:21:48And that's, I'm not saying don't take challenges, but don't set yourself up to
Bob: 00:21:52failure because you lacked self-awareness.
Josh: 00:21:54Yeah.
Josh: 00:21:55And it's tough because historically the people I've seen with
Josh: 00:21:59low self awareness isn't yes.
Josh: 00:22:03It's self awareness, but they haven't been coached well by good leaders.
Josh: 00:22:08And they're usually technically talented, so people are afraid to upset them.
Josh: 00:22:12So they don't give them the bad news that they should hear on how
Josh: 00:22:15you got to get better at this.
Josh: 00:22:16Right.
Josh: 00:22:17So they've lived in this bubble where they don't know.
Josh: 00:22:20
Josh:
00:22:21
They should know.
Josh: 00:22:21But also there should be coaching to say no one's given them.
Bob: 00:22:25
Bob:
00:22:25
So people suck good companies, bad companies.
Bob: 00:22:28You have talked about the leaders, the majority of leaders, 90% of leaders suck
Bob: 00:22:33at giving good feedback and coachable.
Bob: 00:22:35So it's not just the persons, it's the bubble that being created.
Bob: 00:22:39So, so burst your own bubble.
Bob: 00:22:41If you can find a
Josh: 00:22:42friend that you really trust and like have a heart to heart
Josh: 00:22:46discussion with them and say, Hey, I'm thinking about this.
Josh: 00:22:49What do you think now?
Josh: 00:22:50I, I, I
Bob: 00:22:52will,
Josh: 00:22:53I have a confidence issue, right?
Josh: 00:22:55Like I look at a thing and say, I can do that.
Josh: 00:22:58It hasn't gotten me in trouble yet, but it has caused me to chase bigger things than
Josh: 00:23:04I was experienced enough to be ready for.
Josh: 00:23:08But I was willing to bet on myself to go like, make myself, make it happen.
Josh: 00:23:12And I, you know, I haven't run into a brick wall yet, but that, that is
Josh: 00:23:17undoubtedly going to happen at some point where I have a self-awareness issue where
Josh: 00:23:22like, Josh, you really can't do that.
Josh: 00:23:25So like, don't be dumb, but, but I know that's part of my personality that works
Bob: 00:23:31sometimes.
Bob: 00:23:32So I think all of our advice here on this side of the conversation was valid.
Bob: 00:23:36Yeah.
Bob: 00:23:36I'm going to say something rambunctious.
Bob: 00:23:38Ooh, I like it.
Bob: 00:23:38I'm excited.
Bob: 00:23:39I'm not too, but I'm just saying it, but all everything we've said, I don't think
Bob: 00:23:44there's a time in human history like this, where workers are in the driver's seat.
Bob: 00:23:50So don't waste it.
Bob: 00:23:52Don't waste this opportunity.
Bob: 00:23:54Yeah.
Bob: 00:23:54Right.
Bob: 00:23:55This is too good of an opportunity, not just for you, but to disrupt right.
Bob: 00:24:01Sort of mechanistic companies and, and, and poor leadership.
Bob: 00:24:05maybe this leads into our other, you know, what can leaders do,
Bob: 00:24:07but yeah, so don't only demand money, demand, excellent leaders.
Bob: 00:24:12You may actually have a harder time finding excellent leaders
Bob: 00:24:15than getting paid, but there is no better time than now.
Bob: 00:24:19You have the heat on in here.
Bob: 00:24:20What's going on, Bob?
Bob: 00:24:21I had to take my jacket off.
Bob: 00:24:23Are you?
Bob: 00:24:23Yeah, I'm getting close.
Bob: 00:24:24I think it's the hot air that we're both
Josh: 00:24:27better.
Josh: 00:24:28I'm going to start sweating soon.
Josh: 00:24:29So before we go to the leadership side of the house, I want to talk
Josh: 00:24:32about the flip side of that coin.
Josh: 00:24:34So you thought about it.
Josh: 00:24:36You've investigated.
Josh: 00:24:38You've decided you, you love this company.
Josh: 00:24:41You're getting a challenge the way you want to get challenged,
Josh: 00:24:43but you know, you're potentially leaving 20, 30 K on the table.
Josh: 00:24:49What do you
Bob: 00:24:49
Bob:
00:24:51
I go for, if I'm, if I'm in that first, third, I go for it.
Bob: 00:24:54I take all of the advice that we had, but this is it's like the stock market.
Bob: 00:24:59What would you do if it was a stock market and you were grabbing a stock that
Bob: 00:25:02you knew was going to grow over time?
Bob: 00:25:03Well, I'm
Josh: 00:25:04saying like, do you go talk to your boss?
Josh: 00:25:05Do you say, Hey, there's this pay gap out there?
Bob: 00:25:09I actually think so.
Bob: 00:25:11I'd be interested to hear your view.
Bob: 00:25:12I'm like, just go for it.
Bob: 00:25:13I don't know if I, I talked to my boss so much outside of do I, do I
Bob: 00:25:17change the behavior with my boss?
Bob: 00:25:19Like how, whatever, if I'm having one-on-one.
Bob: 00:25:21So every boss have them.
Bob: 00:25:22If I'm having career growth discussions with our boss, keep having them
Bob: 00:25:26to, whatever degree was habit.
Bob: 00:25:27Do I have an extra conversation?
Bob: 00:25:29No, I just look for the opportunities.
Bob: 00:25:31I do see, I, I, I look, I probably look to
Josh: 00:25:34jump.
Josh: 00:25:35Yeah.
Josh: 00:25:35It, if, if I'm in that position where, where I've looked and
Josh: 00:25:39in looking, so you find a
Bob: 00:25:4130 K opportunity finding
Josh: 00:25:4330 average SUNY, but the, and
Bob: 00:25:47I love what you guy, I love where I'm at
Josh: 00:25:49says.
Josh: 00:25:50I love all of the things where I'm at except the pay piece.
Josh: 00:25:56Right?
Josh: 00:25:56So I'm happy with all the other variables in the van, but the pay piece is missing.
Josh: 00:26:01I take a shot and say, Hey, it's clear that roles.
Josh: 00:26:09Like if I were to leave, you would have to pay someone 30 K more to film
Bob: 00:26:13
Bob:
00:26:14
I would probably I, so, so we're on opposing ends, which is cool.
Bob: 00:26:18I would probably just leave.
Bob: 00:26:19Okay.
Bob: 00:26:20I would probably just leave because if they were going to pay me that they
Bob: 00:26:22would have paid me that or any way, or my boss would have had a conversation
Bob: 00:26:26with me to talk about the inequity or the market awareness, et cetera, et cetera.
Bob: 00:26:31Okay.
Bob: 00:26:31All right.
Bob: 00:26:31
Josh:
00:26:32
then let's slide into it's the other side of the coin you are.
Josh: 00:26:36Responsible for 18.
Josh: 00:26:38
Josh:
00:26:38
You hire them, you fire them.
Josh: 00:26:39You, you help narrow in on what we're paying,
Bob: 00:26:43but I'm aware of this market.
Josh: 00:26:45
Josh:
00:26:45
Yeah.
Josh: 00:26:46Welcome to our diversity inclusion minute, Bob, I hear that you have.
Josh: 00:26:52Juiciness to share.
Josh: 00:26:53Well,
Josh: 00:26:53
Bob:
00:26:54
Bob:
00:26:55
I have been doing, giving diversity and inclusion or people color
Bob: 00:26:59discounts to my leadership classes.
Bob: 00:27:01And I've run into some people over the course of the last
Bob: 00:27:04few years, in the classes.
Bob: 00:27:06And I was looking at LinkedIn the other day.
Bob: 00:27:09And there was this group of, mostly I think African-American coaches like eight
Bob: 00:27:14of them and they posted something and they called it the agile disciples USA
Bob: 00:27:20and what they they're forming a group.
Bob: 00:27:22And they want to do two things they want to do.
Bob: 00:27:25They want to get their certified team coach.
Bob: 00:27:28Okay.
Bob: 00:27:28There's criminal at CTC and that's a hard bar to get.
Bob: 00:27:33So they're going to, they have this unique idea that we'll work
Bob: 00:27:35together as a cohort to do that.
Bob: 00:27:38And then while we're doing the cohort, part of the CTC is giving back or
Bob: 00:27:41doing presentations or, you know, doing public speaking yourself or
Bob: 00:27:46coordinating meetings or whatever.
Bob: 00:27:49They're like, oh, we'll give back and we'll grow the community.
Bob: 00:27:51So we're going to learn and we're also going to pay it forward.
Bob: 00:27:56And that's part of our charter.
Bob: 00:27:57And I sent them a little note and I'm like, you just let
Bob: 00:28:00me know if I can help you.
Bob: 00:28:01And the good, bad news is they, they said, yeah, you can, you know,
Bob: 00:28:06we would like you to, to become a, a supporter of what we're doing.
Bob: 00:28:10So I met with him yesterday, Saturday.
Bob: 00:28:12And and it's, I'm going to be coaching, helping them become
Bob: 00:28:18CTCs and supporting them.
Bob: 00:28:22they, they want to have a kickoff meeting or something, you know,
Bob: 00:28:25webinars, something to generate some of this public value back.
Bob: 00:28:30They created a slack channel that we're talking in.
Bob: 00:28:33So that's that, and I'm really, I'm really jazzed because it's the key thing for me.
Bob: 00:28:40It's, it's our target.
Bob: 00:28:42I want to help these folks.
Bob: 00:28:44I have privilege.
Bob: 00:28:46It's a group of folks they're incredibly passionate and what's
Bob: 00:28:51exciting me the most is the snowball effect of the other side of them.
Bob: 00:28:55Imagine as they gain momentum, right?
Bob: 00:28:58Yeah.
Bob: 00:28:58Like the momentum side of it, because they're going to touch other people
Bob: 00:29:02themselves because right away.
Bob: 00:29:04Right away.
Bob: 00:29:05And so I'm excited about that.
Bob: 00:29:06That is very exciting.
Bob: 00:29:08Now the biggest concern I have is bandwidth, right?
Bob: 00:29:11It's like, it's like, I'm like, oh my God, I hope I can.
Bob: 00:29:14I have a tendency, Josh, whether you know this or not to bite off
Bob: 00:29:16more than I do, I, we both do both.
Bob: 00:29:19So, so, but it's not, but my heart, I am, I am so blessed that this,
Bob: 00:29:25and it just popped into my lap.
Bob: 00:29:26Well, that's my
Josh: 00:29:27diversity.
Josh: 00:29:27You ever need to like tag out for a bit.
Josh: 00:29:29
Bob:
00:29:30
you want to, you want to tag with me?
Bob: 00:29:32Yeah, sure.
Josh: 00:29:32I'd love that.
Josh: 00:29:33I mean, I'm not a certified anything, so I
Bob: 00:29:35don't know if that matters, but it's not, but they need men.
Bob: 00:29:38They need people like, right.
Bob: 00:29:40The paperwork needs mentors and coaches.
Bob: 00:29:42There's all kinds of stuff to help them.
Bob: 00:29:44I mean, and it's a long time arc, so the CTC might take a year or
Bob: 00:29:49two to get, but while they're doing that, they're giving back.
Bob: 00:29:53So I just love the hearts of these folks.
Bob: 00:29:55Yeah, absolutely.
Bob: 00:29:56Cool.
Bob: 00:29:57Done.
Bob: 00:29:57All right.
Bob: 00:29:58Back to the
Josh: 00:29:58episode,
Bob: 00:30:00I started initiating conversations with everyone.
Bob: 00:30:02So I look at my banding.
Bob: 00:30:04I look at my salary banding because there's always people that are
Bob: 00:30:07underpaid more than other people.
Bob: 00:30:09So, so I start looking at like my market equity and your marketing
Bob: 00:30:12equity bands should be rising with this phenomenon as well, right.
Bob: 00:30:16To some degree, not as fast, but I look, I talked to.
Bob: 00:30:20And I'm aware of whoever reports to me and what it, the equity proposition.
Bob: 00:30:24And I start having conversations with them, like, do we need
Bob: 00:30:27to, do we need to do dual bump?
Bob: 00:30:29Or what, what are you feeling like?
Bob: 00:30:31So all I was saying was I, as a, as a leader, I want to be ahead of that curve.
Bob: 00:30:36I don't want to wait for someone to have that conversation with me
Bob: 00:30:39because it's potentially too late.
Bob: 00:30:40Yeah.
Bob: 00:30:41And then I'm counter offering.
Bob: 00:30:42Do you know what I was implying earlier is I don't like counter offers, so
Bob: 00:30:47that's another, so that's a bias I have.
Bob: 00:30:49Right.
Bob: 00:30:50I wanna, I wanna, like, I want to delight someone in advance of
Bob: 00:30:54them, of them saying I have an offer on the table at 20 X again.
Bob: 00:30:57Yeah.
Josh: 00:30:58To me, there are a few things as frustrating as, so
Josh: 00:31:02you're willing to pay me this.
Josh: 00:31:04I just had to say I was going to leave exactly.
Josh: 00:31:06Why, why wouldn't you pay me that, like this, I feel like I've been
Josh: 00:31:10deceived for a period of time.
Josh: 00:31:12
Bob:
00:31:12
I think so.
Bob: 00:31:14Is I'm working my butt off and it's not always easy to do.
Bob: 00:31:17And you can't always compete with the marketplace right.
Bob: 00:31:20Equal, but I would be talking to people about it in one-on-ones.
Bob: 00:31:24I would be trying to figure out who is more sensitive to it than others.
Bob: 00:31:28and I would be trying to make adjustments to become more market competitive.
Bob: 00:31:33And I'd be, and I'm not just saying that Medicare says I'd be working
Bob: 00:31:35really hard behind the scenes in the company to justify that.
Bob: 00:31:40Yeah.
Josh: 00:31:40I, I, the, the only thing I would change about, and it might've been
Josh: 00:31:44just the word you chose and you might have meant it differently than how you
Josh: 00:31:47said it was that I wouldn't go ask HR.
Josh: 00:31:50I would go tell HR and executives and, and whatever, saying, this
Josh: 00:31:56is an issue, a market condition that we have to respond to.
Josh: 00:32:00And we have choices.
Josh: 00:32:01We can accept the market conditions, choose to play at this new level
Josh: 00:32:07and find ways to fund that.
Josh: 00:32:08Or we cannot, and then we have to accept.
Josh: 00:32:12The indirect costs we're going to have by losing people, taking time, spending
Josh: 00:32:16money, to recruit and fill those.
Josh: 00:32:19Maybe not being able to hire as good at people as I've left
Josh: 00:32:22because the pay differences.
Josh: 00:32:24So you have to, at that moment, have a decision on what kind of company are we.
Josh: 00:32:30So I think
Bob: 00:32:30both things, Josh is what I was trying to say.
Bob: 00:32:32There's salary banding.
Bob: 00:32:34Yeah.
Bob: 00:32:34And there's annualized re evaluate whatever your companies are accustomed to.
Bob: 00:32:39I, I would use them to do that again or to reevaluate that, but then there's
Bob: 00:32:43the, does that, that may or may not handle the market conditions, then
Bob: 00:32:49let's argue for the current market.
Bob: 00:32:50Like, what am I seeing in interviewing people?
Bob: 00:32:53You're also, you're also, if you're hiring and most folks are going to
Bob: 00:32:55grow, you're going to see you're going to have inequity coming in from the
Bob: 00:32:59outside because you're competing.
Bob: 00:33:01Right.
Bob: 00:33:02So you can run that up.
Bob: 00:33:03You can use that as an argument internally with HR who,
Josh: 00:33:07yeah.
Josh: 00:33:08I've, I've, I've had really hard.
Josh: 00:33:11Decisions in the past, you know, maybe a decade ago where I wouldn't hire
Josh: 00:33:18somebody in to a role where I was paying them more than somebody that was already
Josh: 00:33:24doing the job and doing it well, that felt wrong for me to do, to have this
Josh: 00:33:30person that has invested and returned with us and helped us build these
Josh: 00:33:35things and then bring somebody in off the street that we think is going to
Bob: 00:33:38be good.
Bob: 00:33:39So, so yeah, I mean,
Josh: 00:33:41I think that's part of, but that was a decade ago.
Josh: 00:33:43It's not right now.
Josh: 00:33:44Right now.
Josh: 00:33:45Times are drastically different.
Josh: 00:33:47It's crisis is the wrong word, but it's a, it's an event that
Josh: 00:33:51you need to be responding to.
Josh: 00:33:53No, I,
Bob: 00:33:53I, I'm going to disagree with you.
Bob: 00:33:55I think you were right.
Bob: 00:33:5610 years ago.
Bob: 00:33:57
Bob:
00:33:58
And I think you're right today.
Bob: 00:34:00I think you're right to do that.
Bob: 00:34:01Now you hire someone, but then now you have an internal equity challenge.
Bob: 00:34:05Right.
Bob: 00:34:05And you've exacerbated it.
Bob: 00:34:07So, so you have to, you have to be leveraging that.
Bob: 00:34:10Right.
Bob: 00:34:11And, but, but you have, you ha I, I don't know what you were
Bob: 00:34:14saying, but my re I always I'm, I'm always looking organizationally
Bob: 00:34:19and am I paying everyone fairly?
Bob: 00:34:21And as I'm hiring incoming folks, it's changing the distributions.
Bob: 00:34:25Right.
Bob: 00:34:26And so sometimes I even under non-crazy conditions, I would
Bob: 00:34:29have salary bumps out of band.
Bob: 00:34:31Right.
Bob: 00:34:32Just so I could feel like I am fairly compensating folks.
Bob: 00:34:36Yeah.
Bob: 00:34:36I once adjusted all the QA folks, because I wanted them to be fairly compensated
Bob: 00:34:41with developers in an agile context.
Bob: 00:34:43Right.
Bob: 00:34:43And, and they were overly, I couldn't even find a band for them to go
Bob: 00:34:46into because they were underpaid.
Bob: 00:34:49So I think you have to be balancing that.
Bob: 00:34:51So I that's what you were saying before.
Bob: 00:34:53Yeah.
Bob: 00:34:53So then you might hire someone at 20 K more.
Bob: 00:34:56But that's that won't stop you from that.
Bob: 00:34:59But now, you know, you have to respond, right?
Bob: 00:35:01You have to respond to everyone, right?
Josh: 00:35:03Because the reality is, if you don't accept the fact that you might
Josh: 00:35:08have to pay 20 K more than you're paying people right now, you might not
Josh: 00:35:11get the type of people that you want.
Josh: 00:35:14So then you have to take that step and reactively make
Josh: 00:35:17adjustments within your company.
Josh: 00:35:19So these, these are things that you were going to have to fight for.
Josh: 00:35:23This will not be an easy road to go to the board or to whoever you
Josh: 00:35:26have to go to, to get an actual.
Josh: 00:35:28$3 million or whatever the number is to cover your team,
Josh: 00:35:32to get everybody bumped up.
Josh: 00:35:33And it's not just like $3 million this year.
Josh: 00:35:35It's $3 million in perpetuity.
Josh: 00:35:38Absolutely.
Josh: 00:35:38You know, so those are discussions that sometimes folks don't like
Josh: 00:35:43to have, but at that point, well,
Bob: 00:35:46and you may have to say no.
Bob: 00:35:47So you have choices as a leader.
Bob: 00:35:50I had success in sharing with people, my equity drivers, but also my driver too.
Bob: 00:35:55You know, I want to, I want to up-skill the organization,
Bob: 00:35:58but I also want to be fair.
Bob: 00:36:00So in some cases I might say no to someone from a salary.
Bob: 00:36:03I mean, at some point, if someone came to you and said, I want 60 K I want a
Bob: 00:36:07hundred K more, you're going to say no.
Bob: 00:36:09So every leader has to put, you have to change your, your
Bob: 00:36:13competitive posture, right.
Bob: 00:36:14And your strategies.
Bob: 00:36:16So I think there's a monetary strategy as a leader.
Bob: 00:36:19What's challenging is depending on the company culture, you can't always
Bob: 00:36:21communicate that to people like in some cultures, they make salaries relatively.
Bob: 00:36:26Transparent or not totally, but relatively transparent or ranges
Bob: 00:36:30of bags and some places don't.
Bob: 00:36:32
Bob:
00:36:32
I also think it might even be less, so it's more of a personal
Bob: 00:36:36thing, but I think your leadership style has to change as well.
Bob: 00:36:40I mean, so for take money off the plate, you know, are they
Bob: 00:36:44going to give me flexibility?
Bob: 00:36:46Are they going to train me?
Bob: 00:36:47Are they going to give me flex time?
Bob: 00:36:49Are they going to allow me to work from home?
Bob: 00:36:51Are they are they going to not ride me?
Bob: 00:36:54Like treat me like a resource?
Bob: 00:36:56Are they going to treat me like a person?
Bob: 00:36:58There's a lot of leaders out there.
Bob: 00:36:59Are they going to have one-on-ones with me and, and, and really connect
Bob: 00:37:04to me, like establish a relationship with me and put me first and grow me.
Bob: 00:37:08So there's the supervisory relationship?
Bob: 00:37:12The leadership aspect.
Bob: 00:37:13Yeah.
Bob: 00:37:14I think you have to raise the bar on that as well.
Bob: 00:37:16Don't you, I'm thinking
Josh: 00:37:18you have to raise the bar on anything.
Josh: 00:37:20So to me, I hope this isn't the first time you're hearing this discussion topic,
Josh: 00:37:25because if this is the first time you're hearing that and you have a team that
Josh: 00:37:29you're leading and it might be too late.
Bob: 00:37:31I don't think people, I I'm not as tuned in as you are.
Bob: 00:37:35You're, you're more tuned in, but my sense is this isn't P
Bob: 00:37:39most companies are reacting to this rather than being proactive.
Bob: 00:37:44Right.
Bob: 00:37:44It's like diversity.
Bob: 00:37:45I mean, I heard someone the other day, they laid off the diversity and inclusion.
Bob: 00:37:49They, why would you do that now?
Bob: 00:37:52Right.
Bob: 00:37:52So people, I think, I don't know if most companies are in a proactive mode
Bob: 00:37:58and like staying ahead of the curve and
Josh: 00:37:59yeah.
Josh: 00:38:00And, and I firmly believe the companies that are will win.
Josh: 00:38:03Oh yeah,
Bob: 00:38:04absolutely.
Bob: 00:38:05Yeah.
Josh: 00:38:05So it's a, it's a life or death, death kind of thing.
Josh: 00:38:09Yeah.
Josh: 00:38:10Where, again, this is one of those found foundational issues
Josh: 00:38:13of if you're a technology company.
Josh: 00:38:15You have to respond to this because others will and you won't.
Josh: 00:38:19And then you're going to struggle to find the talent that is needed
Josh: 00:38:22to deliver whatever you need to do.
Bob: 00:38:24Well, I mean, this is going to weed out too, to your point, it's
Bob: 00:38:28going to weed out the weak and the, and the myopically focused folks.
Bob: 00:38:32Absolutely.
Bob: 00:38:33I agree.
Bob: 00:38:34What else should leaders?
Bob: 00:38:35I actually think the icky guy, I have to bring it in.
Bob: 00:38:39I think the achy guy comes into play again.
Bob: 00:38:42Okay.
Bob: 00:38:43Because it's make sure folks are doing what they love.
Bob: 00:38:46Okay.
Bob: 00:38:47Yeah.
Bob: 00:38:47Giving folks opportunities, trying to help them make a difference, even if
Bob: 00:38:52that's a difference, like, working for habitat, the company creates opportunities
Bob: 00:38:57to volunteer for habitat for humanity.
Bob: 00:38:59
Bob:
00:39:00
Right.
Bob: 00:39:00Or something like that.
Bob: 00:39:01Or like you were doing at storable where you were talking about
Bob: 00:39:04diversity and inclusion and you had that, those initiatives.
Bob: 00:39:09It's not just, am I making a difference outside?
Bob: 00:39:12Am I making you can make a difference inside, inside out?
Bob: 00:39:15Yeah, I think those things, yeah.
Bob: 00:39:18I mean, that's, that's
Josh: 00:39:21the job, right?
Josh: 00:39:22You need to know what drives people.
Josh: 00:39:25And as soon as someone on your team doesn't feel like your company is helping
Josh: 00:39:29them get to wherever they want to get to.
Josh: 00:39:31If it's, Hey, I love my job.
Josh: 00:39:32I just want to help the world more or, Hey, I love my job.
Josh: 00:39:36And I just need a little bit more money or I'm happy with the money and I
Josh: 00:39:39want to try something new or whatever.
Josh: 00:39:41Like you, you need to understand what drives each person and make sure
Josh: 00:39:47it's clear that you're supporting them and getting to wherever that is.
Josh: 00:39:50And if not, then they'll go find somebody else that does
Bob: 00:39:53another thing as you were talking, I was thinking.
Bob: 00:39:56At Zenergy, we've talked about strategies of bringing folks in
Bob: 00:40:00from the bottom and developing them.
Bob: 00:40:02So I think this is another part of this strategy out there
Bob: 00:40:05is, are you growing people?
Bob: 00:40:07You know, we've talked about university, like our biases, not
Bob: 00:40:10hiring people with university degrees, not being totally focused.
Bob: 00:40:1320 years ago.
Bob: 00:40:13I was focused there.
Bob: 00:40:15Now it's maybe bring folks in with a bootcamp a 10 week bootcamp
Bob: 00:40:19and bring them in and develop them for two or three years.
Bob: 00:40:22So I think there's multi, I'm wondering if there's multifaceted
Bob: 00:40:25strategies of staffing.
Bob: 00:40:27It's not just bringing in high-end folks.
Bob: 00:40:29It's are you growing people?
Bob: 00:40:31Yeah, I think it's both as a leader.
Bob: 00:40:33I'm looking for, am I developing folks?
Bob: 00:40:36My bringing folks in with music degrees.
Bob: 00:40:38Am I allowing people to pivot in from school teaching?
Bob: 00:40:41What am I doing?
Bob: 00:40:43At all ends of the organization to create this.
Bob: 00:40:45Would you buy that or, yeah,
Josh: 00:40:47I, I think that's something you should be doing now, regardless
Josh: 00:40:50of whatever, like this, this event shouldn't push you into that you
Josh: 00:40:55should have already been doing that.
Josh: 00:40:56But if you're not doing that again, if you're not doing that and you
Josh: 00:41:00don't respond to what's happening.
Josh: 00:41:02Yeah,
Bob: 00:41:02yeah, yeah.
Bob: 00:41:04Well, there's going to be a natural, I mean, part of what we're talking
Bob: 00:41:07about though, is a natural as a leader, we're on the flip side, right.
Bob: 00:41:10As a leader, you're not going to keep people forever.
Bob: 00:41:13Right?
Bob: 00:41:14You're not.
Bob: 00:41:14So what are you, what are you doing to re, to re re instantiate your staff?
Bob: 00:41:19Yeah.
Bob: 00:41:20Right.
Bob: 00:41:20You gotta be thinking about,
Josh: 00:41:21yeah.
Josh: 00:41:22I, I, my first real leadership role was at a small insurance company that
Josh: 00:41:29mostly hired hourly folks to do claims and underwriting and all of that stuff.
Josh: 00:41:33So when I came in and wanted to pay developers, when I thought a fair
Josh: 00:41:36price was, there was a number of.
Josh: 00:41:39Comfortable going above.
Josh: 00:41:40
Josh:
00:41:40
And I, I got frustrated because I would hire somebody in, they would
Josh: 00:41:44get great and they would leave.
Josh: 00:41:46
Josh:
00:41:46
I just accepted, okay.
Josh: 00:41:49These are the constraints with which I am presented.
Josh: 00:41:52How am I going to respond?
Josh: 00:41:54So I got really good at finding young talent, bringing them in, getting them
Josh: 00:41:58up to speed as quickly as I could getting two, three good years out of them.
Josh: 00:42:03And then making sure I always had a pipeline of somebody else ready to come in
Bob: 00:42:07tenured today.
Bob: 00:42:08Just guess I would guess like five years max, max.
Bob: 00:42:11Right.
Bob: 00:42:13So what we're talking about, you have to develop a strategy
Bob: 00:42:15to do some of this, right.
Bob: 00:42:17And there might be a pipeline for everyone and then maybe for subject
Bob: 00:42:20matter experts or architects or something.
Bob: 00:42:22So maybe you have to sort of longer tenured people, but you're still going
Bob: 00:42:26to, you're still going to have to refresh.
Bob: 00:42:28Yeah.
Josh: 00:42:29As a leader, you need to always be recruiting.
Bob: 00:42:32Yeah.
Bob: 00:42:32Always.
Bob: 00:42:33Yeah.
Bob: 00:42:36Did we, I feel pretty good about this.
Bob: 00:42:38Do you?
Bob: 00:42:38Yeah.
Bob: 00:42:38Yeah.
Bob: 00:42:39All right.
Bob: 00:42:39I'm going to make sure you brought it into, I think it was a nice
Bob: 00:42:42topic, actually, so, all right.
Bob: 00:42:44Are we done?
Bob: 00:42:45Oh, we're done.
Bob: 00:42:45All right.
Bob: 00:42:46So from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina, I'm Bob Gatlin and I'm not
Josh: 00:42:51sharing.
Josh: 00:42:51Listen,
Bob: 00:42:52shake and bake.
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