Navajo Nation President Asks NASA to Delay Moon Launch Over Possible Human Remai...
source link: https://science.slashdot.org/story/23/12/31/2318242/navajo-nation-president-asks-nasa-to-delay-moon-launch-over-possible-human-remains
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Navajo Nation President Asks NASA to Delay Moon Launch Over Possible Human Remains
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"Navajo Nation President Buu Nygren has asked NASA to delay a scheduled launch to the Moon that could include cremated remains," reports Arizona Public Radio station KNAU:
Nygren says he recently learned of the January 8 launch of the Vulcan Centaur carrying the Peregrine Mission One. The lander will carry some payloads from a company known to provide memorial services by shipping human cremated remains to the Moon. Nygren wants the launch delayed and the tribe consulted immediately. He noted the Moon is sacred to numerous Indigenous cultures and that depositing human remains on it is "tantamount to desecration."
NASA previously came under fire after the ashes of former geologist and planetary scientist Eugene Shoemaker were sent to the Moon in 1998. Then-Navajo Nation President Albert Hale said the action was a gross insensitivity to the beliefs of many Native Americans. NASA later apologized and promised to consult with tribes before authorizing any similar missions in the future.
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Wait, so Native Americans own the Moon now? Lol... This is what happens when you're "sensitive to beliefs".
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Also, next thing you know, they're going to block any sort of Moon base from being built there. "Because that's insensitive to our beliefs!"
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Imagine how many astronauts will be taking dumps on the moon if there's a moon base!
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Someone could bless the dumps then it wouldn't sacrilege.
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No, not that kind of Indian.
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You are asking to get cancelled, my man!:)
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by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 31, 2023 @09:30PM (#64120761)
Classic shakedown, it's insensitive until you hand over the $$$.
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Eggsactly.
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Do you realize that your word, "sensitive" and the Navajo's word, "sacred", mean Different Things? This is a basic misunderstanding of the two words even in the 2020's.
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Have the meeting to discuss terms of the property dispute on the moon. I strongly suspect one party will be a no-show.
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I'm writing you in on the ballot in 2024.
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Not what you want != desecration. We need an AI with definitions to point out how STUPID they are.
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What has happened is: people who don't like something have said they don't like it. That is a healthy attribute of society, not a symptom of rot, You are confusing sensitivity with subservience.
(And if you're butthurt that Native Americans are claiming dominion over a bunch of real estate that they don't inhabit and have no relationship with, then I have a wild and true story to share with you!)
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Are they going to complain when other nations send stuff to the moon as well? NASA might listen, but the ESA? Japanese private companies? India? China?
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I don't think they complained when Israel polluted the Moon with a bunch of tardigrades.
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Those other places aren't going to give them a payout to shut up about it. They just want a cool 20 million to salve the moon's pride.
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Japanese private companies? India? China?
The fun thing with that is the Moon is a deity for several million Japanese [wikipedia.org], Indian [wikipedia.org], and Chinese [wikipedia.org] people, and they don't mind any of that, at all. In fact, they name their Moon crafts after their respective, currently worshipped mythological deities and spiritual entities: Kaguya [wikipedia.org] and Hiten [wikipedia.org] (Japan), Chandra (India), Chang'e and Queqiao [wikipedia.org] (China).
As such, I'd suggest a global vote by Moon worshippers to determine what the Moon-as-sacred consensus on the scientific and technological exploration of His/Her/Hir body is. My hunch is over 90% of them would vote "yes".
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by llamahunter ( 830343 ) on Sunday December 31, 2023 @08:58PM (#64120679)
No one 'owns' the moon, and it's no one's 'sacred space' to exert control over.
Though, I do recall reading somewhere that some indigenous people asked the astronauts going to the Moon in the 1970s to be careful about the number of rocks they took away, as they were concerned that if they took too many, it would make the moon smaller and dim the light it provided to them on Earth. I believe they were satisfied by the results of the Apollo mission, as the moons brightness was barely reduced by the rock samples returned.;-)
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The Catholics may disagree⦠as they have a Bishop of the Moon: https://web.archive.org/web/20... [archive.org]
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There is a bishop of New York too, but that doesnâ(TM)t imply that Catholics claim ownership of New York!
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Considering what a relatively short period of time humans have been in the Americas compared to people in Africa, Asia, and Europe, I say the Navaho are near last in line to claim anything about the moon.
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The Moon belongs to everyone on Earth, and a company that wants to sprinkle human remains need to get the entire world's permission.
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No, but this is still wrong on so many levels. NASA is a scientific organisation that shouldn't be wilfully using public resources on quasi religious acts. They also shouldn't be making shit up about other people's religious beliefs, acting on that made-up shit, & pissing them off.
How about NASA sticks to what it's ostensibly supposed to do; scientific research & development into understanding & implementing space exploration? -
Yes, we do!
The issue is not the sacredness of the moon to Native Americans but the continual lying of the USA Federal Government and it's Agencies to indigenous groups and citizens.
As usual, White Man Speaks With Forked Tongue! -
When do the casinos open?
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Oh, give it a rest. 150 million were executed because of totalitarian dictatorships, not because they were atheist. There are plenty of examples of atheist countries that don't murder millions of their citizens. Both Sweden and Japan come to mind. Japan is 86% atheist. Sweden is 78%.
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Ditto for religious countries. Beliefs, of any sort, can lead to murdering millions of people, but that's an uncommon occurrence. More often than not, believers aren't of the mega-murdering mentality.
That's an often-quoted reference, but it's incorrect. In Japanese expressions such as "Are you religious?" and variations are understood as meaning holding a profound commitment to a religion and its dogmas, on par with that of a priest, so when most Japanese hear that question they reply "no" the same way, e.g
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Slight correction, anybody who answers "no" to any question in Japan is considered to be rude. If you asked "are you religious?" they might in turn ask "which religion?" whilst having various Shinto artifacts in their home. And that is as close to a "no" answer as you'll likely get.
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Communism is indistinguishable from any other religion. It comes complete with an origin story (the so called "primitive communism") and a promise of the end being some kind of paradise on earth.
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Are those voices indigenous to the moon?
If not, why should they be privileged in the discussions you mention?
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I do not think they should be privileged in the conversation, that would be weird.
But included? Yes. Especially since NASA said they would include them the last time this came up.
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The Navajo nation had a population of about 165,000. Unless you want every other community of that size to also have a voice in the discussion, you're asking for them to be privileged. The county where I live has a population of 1.1 million; do we get 6 to 7 times the voice of the Navajo nation?
Besides your idea that NASA previously said they should be included, what's one actual good reason for them to be part of the discussion?
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If they'd told them to go pound sand the first time, they wouldn't be having this problem now. Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile.
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Yep you see that everywhere. From New Zealand's Marui population laying native title claim to spectrum licenses for 5G, to Australian's Aboriginals blocking a gas pipeline being built in the ocean at a depth of 40m on native title grounds (tell me again how deep you can dive buddy before you go claiming that area is sacred to you).
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Was it teriyaki style [youtube.com]?
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You mean that was considered worse than naming the entire series of missions about a Greek/Roman god Apollo? Not to mention the Roman gods used to name the planets. Perhaps if those of us who don't believe in the Olympian/Roman gods can ignore this display of religious fervour then I think it's fine to expect others to do the same.
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I suppose it's the difference between historical naming and dead religions, and the current most common one in the US.
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I recall an amusing interview of a member of the International Astronomical Union who said about naming celestial bodies that for a dead god 3000 years was ok.
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"There were complaints about the Christian dogma broadcast by Apollo 10"
I think it was Apollo 8, where the astronauts read from Genesis. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth...
You can hear the recording on "The Songs of Distant Earth" by Mike Oldfield.
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I am at a loss as to why you've been flagged "flamebait" for suggesting that NASA keep their promises. This seems like a pretty minimal expectation for a functional civilization.
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Looks like somebody forgot to eat their hot grits before reminiscing!
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The moon is a rock in space. NASA at least has been there, planted a flag etc.
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So, they want to be consulted so they can say no and be offended at being ignored? Or they want money to compensate for their offended beliefs?
I'm all for reconciliation but sorry, that is not how it works. -
I didn't know the Navajo Nation had exclusive worship rights to the moon. The ancient Mesopotamians worshiped the moon deity and it was known as Nanna in Sumerian.
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Shoot, maybe I shouldn't have been referring to my grandma as "nanna" all this time.
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Your post is conspicuously low on Futurama quotes.
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We're whalers on the moon,
We carry a harpoon.
But there ain't no whales,
so we tell tall tales,
and sing our whaling tune!
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I identify as Mesopotamian you insensitive clod!
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It's time to abolish the belief in sky beings already. We know what the Moon is now... it's not a night time being that comes out to scare you into submission. High interest rates are insensitive to my beliefs. Who do I talk to about putting a hold on them?
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So, just to speak plainly, you believe we should strip people of their right to enjoy freedom of religion? And you don’t see a problem with abridging one of our most fundamental rights? I’d even go so far as to argue that for most laypeople the difference between a “sky being” and the oft-mentioned “experts” they say support whatever they believe is a distinction without difference, in that both are simply appeals to higher authority being repeated by people who have no f
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Mind you, I'm not saying that we as a society need to kowtow to unreasonable demands, but your suggestion is itself far from being reasonable or proportionate as a response to such demands.
And the way the suggestion was phrased was rude and shows nothing except the narrow-minded lack of tolerance for other people's beliefs that's so common among young atheists. -
"So, just to speak plainly, you believe we should strip people of their right to enjoy freedom of religion?"
No, just don't bother others with it.
"And you donâ(TM)t see a problem with abridging one of our most fundamental rights?"
There's a right to speech and think what you want, not a right to be listened and adhered to.
"the difference between a âoesky beingâ and the oft-mentioned âoeexpertsâ... by people who have no factual leg on which to stand."
We'll stick to the science enablin
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I was actually thinking of anti-vaxxers as a paradigmatic example of the line you’re referencing, hence why I said “experts” in scare quotes and said they had no factual leg on which to stand. I know I didn’t mention them or other such examples specifically, but I find it somewhat telling that you and several others took it as an attack on evidence-based beliefs, given that I said nothing of the sort.
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To respond to myself: other examples I had in mind would include any form of conspiracy theorist, hero worshipper, homeopath, climate change deniers, etc., but more broadly anyone who simply believes the things that percolate in their echo chambers without critical thought or regard for objective truth.
And yes, that would include some people who are correct by happenstance, because regardless of whether someone is right or wrong, if they use bad math to come up with an answer, and they believe that answer o
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And I never said it was an attack on science. It's just a statement.
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stfu, nobody wants to be lectured by Jar-jar.
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Believe whatever you like. But if your god interferes with reality, your god is wrong.
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Gotta disagree. If your god interferes with reality, we *all* better sit up and take notice.
On the other hand, if *you* try to interfere with reality on your god's behalf... I see no reason why anyone else should care about a god so powerless it can't even speak for itself.
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You have freedom of religion. Believe whatever you want. Other people do not have the right to force their religion on you, nor you on them. You should be thankful for that. Bad things come in places where that is not the case.
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Agreed, hence my concern over the original post, which is suggesting that we should outlaw what you just described.
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You don't like abortions to be restricted but someone else does? That's a legitimate matter of democratic debate with no clear answer since both sides are endorsing THEIR answer to the metaphysical question: 'when does a fetus become a human being?'.
Censorship? Of course you believe in censorship. You'd get very upset if your local tax payer funded library stocked lots of books proselyting for a faith. Yet from the conservative perspective the holding of material that endorses the beliefs of liberal atheist
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Beats an invisible sky hook, on which to hang your beliefs.
A: "Hey, you're destroying the environment!"
B: "So?"
A: "Well, that hurts people!"
B: "And? Why should I care about that?"
A: "Well, er, because you just should, that's all!"
B: "But aren't I just some shambling blob of self reproducing matter?"
A: "Well, yes, but... "
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the Navajo nation? It's smart of them to be ahead of the curve on this one.:)
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Just tell him about the SSP base on the Dark Side and how many deployed there have died already.
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At this point I think Disney has primary say because they are current owners of the blue area on the moon.
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If you can seriously state you have the right to control lunar access due to 'spiritual' rights, you should be ignored from that point forward whenever adults are talking.
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That moon looks like just the kind of place they'd put a reservation...
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And I mean ALL of it.
There are NO FUCKING GODS.
It's just us.
Now deal with it.-
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Unacceptable!. Everyone knows king of the juice is Powerthirst [youtube.com].
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The lack of human sacrifices is an affront to my belief in the Mayan Sun God. I demand human sacrifices!
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We don't care what you believe. We are not sponsoring your religious beliefs by giving you any special property rights. Either to the surface of the moon or the summit of Mauna Loa.
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You probably meant Mauna Kea. (Mauna Loa is still active and not a great place for telescopes.)
I hadn't checked in on the Thirty Meter Telescope in a while. Sounds like those involved have agreed on long-term management of the mountaintop, in a way which may allow the project to go forward [astronomy.com]:
although board members don’t want to get ahead of the process, an emerging compromise could see the embattled TMT built atop the peak in exchange for the decommissioning of several telescopes.
A silver lining of Covi
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People don't get to just claim anything they can see is "sacred" to them. Cultures worship the sun, the moon, the stars, the oceans, the Earth. That is all fine, but its absurd that worshipping something should give you control over that thing.
Sacred places like graveyards and churches are regularly moved or destroyed as necessary - has to be that way or the entire world would end up covered with untouchable sacred sites. I have no problem protecting places of special importance to a group, but the nu -
Or better yet, FUCK NO.
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The universe is my sacred place. I demand to be consulted and have the final say on its uses.
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"Nygren wants the launch delayed and the tribe consulted immediately about how many $millions of $dollars NASA needs to give us to, once again, to conveniently ignore our "sacred beliefs" in exchange for $money."
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They worship the light in the sky. Said light will not in any way measurably change from the few grams of ashes dispersed there. If NASA was to choose to blow up the moon, I can see them wanting a satellite reflector to replace the moon as observed from earth, but this isn't even close.
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wow, way to undermine decades of progress in rights for your people.
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Americans were there first...so don't own it now?
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Just create a "sovereign" moon reservation that adheres to their sensitivities. a 1cm x 1cm plot will do.
Until they can actually launch and land shit with their own "sovereign" national resources, they should kindly shush while the big kids play. -
My grandfather spoke Navajo, I never found out why since he grew up on a Cherokee reservation, he didn't like talking about those things. He was from an era where being a half breed was a bad thing and he did what he could to hide it.
The moon belongs to us all.
White tribes, black tribes, brown tribes, yellow tribes, every people on the face of the planet has the moon in their beliefs. Even as a Christian I can at least show you where the moon was mentioned as placed by God in the Bible, and Christianity i
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Maybe NASA should ask the tribe how much they want? If you get any numerical answer, then you know it's just a shakedown. Fun fact: Visiting the four-corners site used to be free in the 70s. Not any more. There is not a single human endeavor that doesn't involve money somewhere along the line.
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Or is this Navajo president projecting his own views onto the beliefs of his ancestors?
My bet is that the Navajo traditions don't actually say anything about having a problem with human remains being deposited on the moon.
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Long-term consequences? It's a barren rock. If launches were safer we should send all our hazardous waste there.
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What if we wanted to put a housing development in, and itâ(TM)s littered with human remains?
Did you not see Poltergeist?
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We should be feel obligated to find use from whatever waste we create. Dumping resources because we have no perceived use for them is wasteful. Waste not; want not.
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Wouldn't it be interesting to create a story about something like that and how it all goes wrong, the nuclear waste cooks off and the moon goes out of orbit?
I could even see a series being based on that. It could last for 2 seasons, though the second one would probably suck.
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The moon is a dead space rock full of toxic dust. [mcgill.ca] There is no existing environment or ecosystem to preserve. The only real wastefulness here is that the money and resources involved in dumping human remains onto the moon could be put to better use back here on Earth, but that same argument can be made anytime someone with too much money does something stupid with it.
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Just plow them under - we've got a long history of doing so here on Earth, whenever nobody is going to notice.
And so long as they're cremated I don't see any problem at all - we all eat, breathe, and shit peoples' cremated remains on a regular basis - it's not like the ash just vanishes when you scatter it on the wind.
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For my money dropping human remains on the moon when we haven't thought about the long term effects seems like a bad idea.
The moon's surface is a hard vacuum exposed to significant ionizing solar radiation. What long-term effects are you worried about? If the remains were not fully sterilized already they soon would be and there is no local ecosystem to worry about for the same reasons.
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No, you want them to. Would be really wonderful to watch.
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OK, those who marked my original comment as trolling, you finally got something right!:D
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I will back the Navajos because NASA shouldn't be in the business of putting grave sites on the moon. They lost focus, creating unnecessary conflict. Get back to science!
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It's Scientism at it's worst!:D
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So you're not even sure what the word "science" means, and you can't differentiate it from engineering? And yet you bleet in defense of it?
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The famously alt right NPR at it again?
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Maybe NASA can turn it all around and start an auction for the cargo space. If you want that cargo space to be empty or full, place your bids!
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