Discover the Best Success Tips for Healthcare Entrepreneurs (Episode 164)

Transcript

Jeff Bullas

00:00:03 - 00:01:09

Hi, everyone and welcome to The Jeff Bullas Show. Today, we've got with me, Doctor Jonathan Baktari. Now, Doctor Jonathan is the founder and CEO of both e7 Health, a company that leverages technology to offer innovative medical care while providing cost savings for patients and clients. It is the nation's leading drug and alcohol testing service provider. Both of these groundbreaking technology companies were born out of a combination of Doctor Baktari's expertise as a doctor, medical director and educator over his 20 years of clinical administrative and entrepreneurial experience. A former triple board-certified physician with specialties in internal medicine, e7 Health pulmonary and critical care medicine, being a healthcare CEO is on the latest chapter in Doctor Baktari's life mission to help others by making integrative preventative medicine available to everyone.

He's always believed that helping others was the ultimate achievement in life. Now, as a business leader, sought-after speaker and podcast host, he's excited to share his expertise with us today. So, welcome to the show, Jonathan. It's great to have you here.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:01:09 - 00:01:14

Oh, what an honor. Thank you so much for having me, Jeff. It's a big honor to be on.

Jeff Bullas

00:01:14 - 00:01:21

Now the thing I maybe didn't get clear here is this, you're the founder of both e7 Health and what's the other company that you're the founder of what?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:01:21 - 00:02:16

So we actually have three, US Drug Test Centers and we have another company called eNational Testing. So they're all sort of sister companies using leveraging our technology. e7 Health is a brick and mortar operation. US Drug Test Centers is actually a nationwide, a drug and alcohol testing for employers and other institutions and as well as individuals and eNational Testing is our nationwide laboratory testing. So people could just hop on our website to order cholesterol tests in all 50 states. And literally, it's like ordering on Amazon, you can just go get any of the major laboratories done. And we have doctors in all 50 states that approve that. And yeah, it's a pretty neat operation where we get to reduce barriers for patients to be able to access laboratory testing.

Jeff Bullas

00:02:16 - 00:03:15

Yeah, that's really important because if you add friction then you people won't get tests done and they might have a problem they don't even know about. So I totally get that. So I still have a bit of friction going to get my annual blood test done every year because I go to the lab, get the needle and then come back and then wait a day or so. But yeah, and then there's a fear of actually there might be something wrong with me and that would be really, that would not be fun to find out. So anyway, more of that later, look, I'm really curious about number one, firstly, how you became a position? What inspired you? And then number two, what inspired you to become basically a health entrepreneur? So firstly, what was the journey for you to go from going hey, I wanna be a doctor because I said I wanted to be a doctor, but I realized that I hated the sight of blood early on. So I decided not to.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:03:16 - 00:04:51

Well, you know, my dad was a doctor. So I obviously that sort of gives me a more insight into what being a doctor is all about and also you tend to, you know, admire your father and, you know, just kind of want naturally inclined to try to do what he did. But beyond that, you know, I found that, you know, even early on, I had, I really believed in science. Science was really important to me. I was very, I shied away from things that weren't evidence based and, you know, be very frank with you. Anything that was hocus pocus really, I had an aversion to

and I just want to know that we, as far as we knew what the scientific truth to things were. So medicine and especially pulmonary and critical care where it's all data and science or a lot of it is. Of course, there's an art to it. It was a natural draw for me. Anything that's vague and obscure while I admire people who do it. I find it difficult to sink my teeth into. I know I do better when I get affirmation with data rather than feelings or instinct or whatever. I just wanna know what early on it. Now, of course, later on I think I have evolved and you realize medicine is also an art besides the science. You know, in fact, probably 50% art. But initially I think the draw was the hard core evidence based field that it is.

Jeff Bullas

00:04:52 - 00:04:59

Well, we, you’d be, excuse me, you're certainly born during the right time because now it's all about data, isn't it?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:04:59 - 00:05:18

Yeah. It's all about data and, but, you know, it's interesting. The more I do it though, the more I realize it's being a physician and being a healthcare provider, the art is almost as important as knowing all the data and having all the science behind you.

Jeff Bullas

00:05:19 - 00:05:35

Yeah. And there is one art that I really value in a doctor or physician is the art of communication. Because, I'm drawn to someone who actually has the ability to ask the right questions. And that is not a science necessarily, but it can be.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:05:36 - 00:06:44

No, it is. It's the art and, you know, even within the, you know, even if you have three patients that have the same situation, you have to size up how each one of them, you know, wants to interact. Some people want it direct, some people want it cushioned, Some people want it, you know, just to hold their hands, some people just want the facts and you have to calibrate almost instantly, especially as you get to know them, you know, just from their body language for the eye contact, you know, hey, some people want a lot of information. Some people just like, tell me what to do, what kind of test I need and that there comes the art, right? I mean, you can't blurt out the same thing to three different people the same way, right? You have to, who's in front of me, what, what's their story? What's their sensitivity? Who, where are they in their life journey right now? How vulnerable are they? You know, how much hand holding and just support that they need and other people, you're just like, they don't want that. It was like just tell me the facts and let me know, let me go ahead.

Jeff Bullas

00:06:44 - 00:07:06

OK. So I'm intrigued by this because before we get on to what inspired you to leave more an academic pursuit or being a doctor on the ground if you like and what got you to start as a business leader. So, did they teach communication skills at med school?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:07:07 - 00:08:43

No. Now, in all fairness you had mentors. So you would like even as a third year medical student, you would round with the attending physicians and, you know, you sort of gleam of how they're talking to patients and how they talk to the nursing staff. And you know, you have that, it's more of an apprenticeship, mentoring thing. I'll never forget. I, you know, I was a third year medical student. There was this folder attending, you know, white hair, you know, just a very seasoned attending and he said something to all of us. We were standing in a group in the hallway and he goes, you know, I can walk into a room and see a patient and within 30 seconds, I could tell you how sick they are. And I just, I was having none of that. None. I'm like thinking no way. You gotta do a physical exam, you gotta see the labs, you gotta, and then now he would do all that too, but he would say within the first 30 seconds, he already had, he would then confirm it. But so it wasn't like he wasn't doing any of that. But he said I, because I'm rarely wrong because after doing this for so many years, like, within the first 30 seconds, I mean, I, in gross manner, like how sick they really are, they really bat off is, you know, and I didn't really buy into that at all. I'm like, no, you have to examine the patient. Review all the tests, da da, da, da, da, da da. And you know what, 10-20 years later OMG, yes, it's true.

Jeff Bullas

00:08:44 - 00:08:49

That's a bit woohoo. Which is not in your paradigm normally.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:08:49 - 00:09:31

Yeah. Well, I, you know, I hadn't counted on experience and subtle cues and, you know, when you're young you don't have the experience, so you just have the data and then, you know, after you've seen your 10,000 patient in the hospital, you're like, ah, there's a pattern here. Yeah. I see, you know, when should I be concerned more than normal and when should I be less concerned? And that doesn't mean you don't do follow up and, you know, look at everything. It just meant like, you know, walking in the room, you kind of, you get a, it's like a big thing hits you over the head if, if something's seriously wrong.

Jeff Bullas

00:09:32 - 00:09:37

In other words, unconscious expertise, generated by decades of experience.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:09:38 - 00:09:48

Yes. I guess that's the correct way of saying it. But the, but when you're young, you don't like, you're like, no, no, no, that's not, that's not how that works.

Jeff Bullas

00:09:48 - 00:10:22

Alright. So let's move on to the next step. So obviously your dad was a mentor and a someone you looked up to and you say you had an inclination and to become a doctor and obviously had, you know what it took to be a great doctor. So, what was the sort of, you go through, you done medical school, you done practice and so on, you've done lecturing and so that sort of thing. When was the moment it went, I really think I could make a bigger difference by starting my own business. When did that happen?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:10:23 - 00:12:49

That's a great question because people think it's like an epiphany where you just wake up one day and say, oh, I'm gonna do that, but it was actually much more like one door opened another door. You know what I mean? In other words, you know, first I just got on to committees and just got involved in a very superficial way in sort of hospital committees and pharmacy committees and what I found is, one door would open and another, I would do one sort of administrative thing and then somewhere along the way, it would be like an another opportunity to get involved in some other way, maybe it was in hospital quality or just other issues and then what you find out is once you show an interest, then people, you know, look for you and say, hey, you know what, there's this opportunity, you know, you could, there's a medical directorship at an insurance company, you know, would you consider that? And it was, it's always one door, opening another door, but you never knew what the next door was until you got into that first door. So it's not something you can like plan and just say, okay, I'm gonna do this, this, this and this and then I'll have my own company. It was really, it's sort of sight unseen, you just do something and see what opportunities that generates. And for me, it was one in one bigger administrative role after another after another. And then I was medical director in insurance companies, medical director of hospitals. And so it, it really was an evolution rather than just waking up one day and saying, ah, this is and also the fact that I got to do all that. I, the problems became more clear to me than just when I was a clinician. You know, you have this perspective, not only as a practicing doctor, but as a someone who teaches at medical school, as someone who is a medical director for insurance companies, for hospitals, you get to see the hospital's angle, the insurance company's angle, you know, the medical students and residents angle and then you as a clinician, you see your angle, the patient's angle. And when you can look at it from all those perspective, you have a different viewpoint because now you understand all the players, all the stakeholders and what they struggle with. And so when it came to creating something for our own, it become much more clear, some of the things we needed to do.

Jeff Bullas

00:12:50 - 00:13:51

So. Yeah, sometimes it's an aha moment, sometimes it's just I could almost call it leaning into synchronicity. In other words, each moment is a piece of synchronicity that it in slow force, you are leaning into it, which becomes more a flow and a journey of discovery until it became clear to you. Which is really interesting. It's like Spielberg talks about, you know how he got into films. He said that it never shouts, it just whispers what you should be doing with your life and that I which really touches me in terms of everything I've tried to force in life is usually ended up in disaster. What I've leaned into gently tends to actually end up being it doesn't mean you don't act, but it means that you just listen to the whispers along the way and you have obviously done that.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:13:52 - 00:15:01

Yeah. Sometimes it was whispers, sometimes it was a club over the head, so, don't do that. Okay. Don't do that. That doesn't work. So, yeah.

No, because you know what's interesting, sometimes when you do something doors open up but you also close a lot of doors, like, okay, that's not for me, you know, that's not, you know, that's not my cup of tea. And, even knowing that, you know, knowing what you don't want often helps when the right thing shows up. You know, so it's like, almost looking for a good watch, right? I mean, you like, look at our good pair of a suit or something, you know, you look at it like, okay, that's not for me. And then they, ah, yeah. Yeah, it's because you've seen all those other suits. But this one looks good because you're like, no, this is different or, you know, that's so, but if you had never gone shopping for suits or a watch, I don't know if you know if the right one hit you over that.

Jeff Bullas

00:15:01 - 00:15:09

Yeah, I totally agree. And I find that the journey of the purchase is actually almost better than the purchase itself quite often.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:15:10 - 00:15:34

Right. Because you develop a taste. You do, you evolve, right? I mean, your taste evolves what, you know, what you want, where is, if you haven't had the experiences, almost anything sounds good. Potentially, right? I mean, oh, well, I guess that would be okay, let me, versus knowing what doesn't work for you, right?

Jeff Bullas

00:15:34 - 00:16:19

Yeah, exactly. You need to know both what works and what doesn't work for you. And, that's the fun part of the journey as you lean into the future. So, alright. So you, when did you start thinking about obviously you got all this experience, you've seen all the problems and generally business people solve problems which they get recompensed for because the bigger the problem you solve, the bigger the reward as a business person generally, that's one way of looking at it anyway. But so, did you consciously design e7 Health and the other businesses after the experiences you had over the decades?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:16:19 - 00:19:08

Yeah, I mean, we really did. I mean, we certainly with e7 Health, we really created our own space. You know, in the United States, the interaction between health care provider and patient is not a one-to-one transaction. It's not like buying something on Amazon because you have the insurance company, the health care system, the pharmacy, everyone has a say in this transaction. So I know I've used this analogy over and over again. But it's like going on a date to a fancy restaurant and the chef and the waiter sitting at the table and joining in on the conversation all night. It's not going to be the same experience than if it was just the two of you, right?. And I think, I don't, you know, maybe in Australia it's similar because in terms of government involvement in health care and what have you. But, I'm not saying it's good or bad. I mean, obviously it's, you know, with government involvement, you know, is it offsets people's health insurance and just access, but the downside is the transaction is not a mono to mono transaction. There's other people swirling around that transaction and we found that alters it enough that you're not getting the optimal care. So when we developed e7 Health, we sort of bypassed the insurance companies and we just came up with a model where, you know, we made everything super affordable, super easy and we developed technology that allowed literally unbelievable access. Literally, you could go on your cell phone, book an appointment in the parking lot, walk in. Yeah, no clipboard. No, nothing. All iPads everywhere, no paper, get your test done beyond 15 minutes and the next day everything's in your portal. We just wanted to replicate what Amazon does for you. two three clicks, you're there, you get what you need and you're out. So the question was, could we do that? And could we make it affordable? And could we bypass government and could we get bypass, you know, government insurance, health care, public and private insurance. And just have the patients have minimal resistance to get the service. I don't know what it's like over there but in the United States just to even get to see your doctor, you got to go through this whole phone system or you gotta, you know, hit one, then hit three, then hit two, then it hit four, then they'll call you back and then it takes, you know, four to six weeks to be seen. And that's such a disincentive when people you know need medical care.

Jeff Bullas

00:19:08 - 00:19:11

So you almost designed a technology company.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:19:12 - 00:19:19

Yeah, we actually are, you know, it's a running joke in our company. We are a technology company masquerading as a healthcare company.

Jeff Bullas

00:19:20 - 00:19:29

So how long ago did that start? And were there any other partners involved in terms of designing this business?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:19:29 - 00:21:28

Yeah, I had the best partners in the world. They were my staff. So literally, we would, they would tell me what the friction was like, you know, like the troops on the ground are telling the generals what the problem is, right? So it was really designed by the staff. I mean, they would say, you know, hey, if we ever thought of having patients upload their records even before they come while they're booking their appointment. Have we ever thought of auto populating this information so we don't have to input it three times? Have we ever thought about, you know, making the, you know, if we try to give something the patient's allergic to the system warns us? So it was really the senior staff and even, you know, the receptionist could give us, you know, part of our input. I mean, everybody gave us input and it took us years and years of just continuously modifying it. So now if you go to e7health.com or eNational Testing, you'll see. You're, everything's automated. There's no paperwork and you're a few clicks from getting whatever you want. You know, with, I think a 4.9 out of five Google Review on about 1000 reviews and there's no, I've never heard of a medical clinic having that or a medical company. And that's not a testimony to me. It's a testimony, one to my staff, but it's also a testimony to our technology. They love the technology when people see it that they just can't believe this even exists or even with eNational Testing, they can literally get a cholesterol test, you know, within two minutes order, it drive a mile away in all 50 states practically and all the big cities get the test done and the results are in their portal in a couple of days. So this sort of ease of use is something that people are craving for and it's been really reaffirming to see the response.

Jeff Bullas

00:21:29 - 00:22:03

Right. Yeah. And what you described me too is that the challenge with a lot of medical practice is that it's not easily scalable and it sounds like you've believed some of the businesses sound very much like, they're quite scalable nationally now, such as the one you described, like getting a cholesterol test in 50 states. So was that part of the thinking as well? You built a technology company that supports a medical practice? But also the ability to use technology to scale the business. Was that part of the thinking as well?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:22:04 - 00:22:34

Oh, for sure. Because we had to partner with National Net, National Labs, National Vendors, National Partners. So, yeah, that is, you know, we just, it's not something you wake up one day and just do. So it's really been a strategic plan to, you know, get all those relationships in place to make it work. Yeah. So it's been a journey but very premeditated.

Jeff Bullas

00:22:35 - 00:22:42

So from the idea and the concept that you discussed with your staff and it has become your business partners. Is that correct?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:22:42 - 00:22:45

Yeah, that's, yeah, we're all one family but yes.

Jeff Bullas

00:22:46 - 00:22:52

Okay. So from concept and as you discussed it to launch, how long did that take?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:22:53 - 00:24:11

It depends what you consider the beginning. At the beginning, we didn't realize how much technology we didn't need. So maybe 7-8 years ago, we just said, you know, why don't we just develop a little bit of technology to solve this problem? And it, and then we did that and I'm like, wow, okay, that really improves things. And so how do we do a little bit more? I don't think there was a time where we just said, oh, we're jumping into the deep end of technology. I think initially it was a very, you know, very focused need to solve some definite problems but not to become a technology company. I think as we, you know, it's as we got a, you know, sugar rush, a sugar high from solving those initial problems, it became evident. So yes, after a year or two, we just realized, okay, well, you know, this our budget for technology is not a one quarter thing. It's just, we just resolved that, okay, this is just gonna be part of our budget. It's not, it's never going away and it's not a one quarter thing or a one year thing. So we have dedicated a portion of our budget to technology as an ongoing expense.

Jeff Bullas

00:24:11 - 00:24:19

So what you described to me is it's used a lot in the entrepreneur, lean startup as a minimal viable product initially.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:24:19 - 00:25:40

Right. Because you don't know what you don't know. I mean, I, you don't know exactly. First of all, you don't know what's available off the rack. So, initially we thought, well, we just use a lot of third party stuff. I mean, we knew we needed technology but like, well, why don't we just use third party? You know, there's like electronic health records, there's this, that, but then you realize, oh, none of that is made for you and what you're doing. And you know, when you try to cherry, it's like putting duct tape, spit and glue on stuff to make it work for you. Yes, you're barely holding it together and still not doing half the things you want. So once you try third party technology, especially if you're creating your own space, you know, if we were the 20th, you know, cardiologist in Las Vegas or anywhere, I'm sure we could have found a software, but we're creating our own space. Nobody was doing what we were doing. So we couldn't find technology off the rack that made sense. And then once you realize OMG, you know, you're on your third software and you're like, nope, this is not working either. So it wasn't like we didn't want technology. We just initially thought we could cherry rig third party technologies and get 80-90% of what we wanted.

Jeff Bullas

00:25:41 - 00:25:57

Yeah, it's interesting. And you're right, you don't know what you don't know. And the only way to discover what works and what doesn't, and understanding what doesn't work is you go into the market and the market will hit you over the head.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:25:58 - 00:25:59

Club you.

Jeff Bullas

00:25:59 - 00:26:03

This is the clubbing we've been talking about, is it?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:26:03 - 00:27:03

Yeah, it's one of the clubbings. Yeah. You really find out, you really, especially look if you're trying to like, to your listeners. If they're just, if they're going to be the 10th accounting firm in a neighborhood, they don't have to do anything, you know, necessarily just good service, whatever good quality. But if you're trying to create your own space, yeah, that you really have to think hard about what you don't know and figure that out as quickly as possible because people who are replicating other people's businesses, but they're just going to provide better service, you know, or, you know, better pricing. That may not be as big of a challenge, but when you want to do something different, when you want to disrupt, when you want to, you know, go in your own lane, you have to really be focused on what else do I need to make this work. Because no one's ever done this.

Jeff Bullas

00:27:04 - 00:27:40

So in the middle of all this you've had, maybe two things that come to mind for me is what has turned into your biggest opportunity and what has been your biggest challenge, let's maybe look at and they might even be one on the same. I don't know. So what's, as you started this journey and discovered that you needed to build your own tools. What, out of this journey leaning into opportunity. What's been the biggest opportunity you've uncovered along the way, you think from a business point of view?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:27:41 - 00:29:14

Well, it was, I had the inkling but it, the affirmation that people will pay a premium for someone who is going to reduce their brain damage and getting something done. I mean, you know, that people are willing to, you know, say, hey, if someone could help me provide better quality, help me get this faster. You know, I'm willing to pay a little extra to get that. I mean, I think we all know that but a lot of people are afraid to say, you know what. Yeah, but let's say we spend all this money on technology and do all this stuff, you know, is anyone gonna really, you know, appreciate it or want it. But then again, you know, you look at our 10,000 reviews on our website and you know, the 4.9 out of five Google Reviews and you're like, okay, I, it was really reaffirming to see that people really appreciate it. I mean, if you go to e7health.com and click read customer reviews, literally, it sounds like the same person wrote all 10,000 reviews. In fact, I often get that they all sound the same, easy, fast, convenient. You know, it just looks like one person wrote them all and not, but you obviously didn't. We use a third party company to get the reviews and stuff like that. But it's a testimony to the thirst for having a simpler way to access medical care.

Jeff Bullas

00:29:15 - 00:29:27

Other words, what you're really talking about is providing a really convenient and seamless, frictionless experience as possible and people will pay a premium for that. That's what you're really saying. Isn't it?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:29:27 - 00:30:04

A small proof because we're not very expensive either. We keep our margins very thin and, you know, we just rely that people are gonna love it and their friends and what have you and so it's a premium but it's not expensive. So I think for what we're providing. So yeah that was, I don't think if I had told someone before we did it with this work, I would imagine I would have had colleagues of mine that said, you know, that that's never gonna work bypassing the insurance companies and you know, no one's ever gonna come. Yeah. Well, when they have health insurance, why would they come to you?

Jeff Bullas

00:30:04 - 00:30:15

Right. Exactly. Okay. So you mentioned some of your notes here that there are five key ingredients to make a startup successful.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:30:15 - 00:32:34

Yeah, I can, yeah, I can go to that. But the, well, the number one thing you got to make sure you have a product that is unique. I often hear people doing a startup where they're just replicating another business. But, and then I often wonder, well, so like what end of all we're gonna provide better customer service. You should provide better customer service but providing best, better customer service is not a differentiating point in many cases, maybe incrementally unless all the competitors are horrible. But you have to come up with an angle that solves a problem that's unique. As opposed to just, I'm gonna work hard, we're gonna provide great customer service, you know, we're gonna, you know, work harder, longer I get and that it does work, but it's probably not, you know, the highest likelihood for success by just providing great customer service. The other thing to understand is that I think a lot of people who become the CEO of their own company because they came up with the idea, think that being a CEO is a soft skill like, oh people like me, you know, I get along with people, you know, it seems like people want to work with me. It's, you need skill sets which I, you know, I had to acquire pretty hard and fast. But, you know, I often joke, you wouldn't be able to land a 747 because you're good with people, right? I mean, if they put you in the cockpit of a 747 on 30,000 ft, I don't care how good you are with people, you're not landing that plane, right? If you need some technical skills on how to be a CEO, how to be a leader, how to enroll people into your vision, how to be a mentor, how to hire, how to fire, these are skill sets you need to quickly acquire. And I think a lot of people just think it was my idea. So that makes me the CEO. I'm a great guy, you know, all my friends like me, that may not be enough.

Jeff Bullas

00:32:35 - 00:33:02

Yeah. So when we, it's interesting, you're talking about the, so it's a range of schools. So when I talk about five key ingredients quite often being different is gonna be the five key ingredients mixed together to create that unique selling proposition or being unique. Is that correct? It's not just one thing that will set you apart, it will be the mix the ingredients that you put together. Is that correct?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:33:03 - 00:34:09

Yes, for sure. I mean, lots of companies. I bet you there's hundreds of companies. Let's take Silicon Valley where all the startups, you know, bulk of the startups are, you know, I'm sure the majority fail, but that doesn't mean the ones that failed had bad ideas, then you do, you need talent, you need execution, you need leadership, you, it's like you said, it's all of it. So, the great idea is a must, but a great idea without the rest, your chances of success are very, very small. So I wonder how many mediocre ideas take off because they have committed leadership execution, vision, people have brought in the initial, you know, five or 10 people, right? So you're right. It's all the above. The idea, I don't want to say is even secondary because it's important that you have a great idea. But the great idea without the rest is you're not, you're like the likelihood of succeeding is going to be smaller.

Jeff Bullas

00:34:09 - 00:34:30

Totally agree. One thing I've learned the hard way too is falling in love with the process of the business, not just the business idea itself. It is really important because unless you got good systems and processes, then it's very hard to scale and it's also messy.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:34:31 - 00:36:13

Well, that's really where technology comes. And I think, you know, to answer, you know what you had asked earlier, the scalability is really in this world now a function of technology. So if you're not willing to invest in technology, if you're still scanning and you know, working with Excel spreadsheets and your competition is gonna have you for lunch because I promise you there's someone out there with no Excel spreadsheet. Okay. And who's not scanning anything. And they're gonna have your lunch. So you either figure out, yeah, and if you're spending, if your staff spending, you know, 30% of their day, you know, inputting stuff that could be done some other way. Someone will figure it out and you will be behind the eight ball. So yeah, investing in technology, you know, I always say that at least in our companies, we've gotten the 1020 xROI on all our investment in technology. Literally, I can't tell you, I mean, there have been deals and contracts and relationships that we could have never ever had, had we, even when COVID hit, for example, right? We were the one of the first companies to offer nationwide home COVID testing with, you know, FedEx and Kits and what have you, that was only possible because we were already set up and we already had the technology in place. But to try to pivot to COVID, you know, just out of the blue, it would be a challenge. And so if you have the technology, you have a big advantage.

Jeff Bullas

00:36:13 - 00:36:42

Yeah, let's talk about, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the big technology elephant in the room, which is basically summarized with two letters AI and I'm sure you've got a watching brief and you maybe even started to act on it. But I'd be intrigued by what is the role of AI in the medical profession and technology companies? I'd be interested in your thoughts because I'm sure you're gonna have a few thoughts around this.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:36:43 - 00:38:12

You know. At first I was a little skeptical about but to be very frank with you, I think, you know, I kind of look at it this way when I was in medical school, if we wanted to look something up, believe it or not, we used to have like the Washington Manual, it was like a little book that we would keep in our pocket and look up the doses of things and da da da. And of course, the medical students, you know, in the past, you know, in the five, 10 years, you know, of course they have their cellphones and they have all these apps and what have you. So even then, but now AI is just another version of that where you can get information, you know, I consider it an evolution from having a pocket manual to having a cellphone app now to AI to get information like, hey, what are the top five diagnoses if your albumin level is, you know, high or what have you. So I, in that sense as a tool to have, as a tool for health care providers to have the library of data, that's all over the medical world at their fingertips. The more that can happen, the better, you know, the better it's gonna be for patients and everybody. So I'm intrigued by that possibility and I think hopefully it will make leaps and bounds improvement in diagnosing and health care assessment. I'm optimistic.

Jeff Bullas

00:38:12 - 00:39:03

Yeah, for me that's, I've been impressed with a couple of things. Number one is the scaling the productivity of us as humans. Essentially, we had a couple of writers that we spent all our time having to edit their work. But now my editor does all the writing because she doesn't have to worry about bad written copy. So anyway, it's really interesting. So, and on top of that, on top of scaling productivity, the other one that I really like about it too is it essentially helps us with creativity because quite often what the AI comes up with is a recombination of data in ways that you hadn't even thought about because we're trapped in biases and templates that we were brought up with.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:39:03 - 00:40:00

You're right. And in many ways, the filtering of white noise to give you the data that you really wanted to see is what we're talking about because the data is there somewhere. I mean, if you just went online and Googled and it would, you could eventually get it but you know what, it's really not that different than old days when you want the data, you actually would go like doctors, you know, when I was in medical school, we would just go to the medical library and look things up in journals and are literally like drive to the library and look at. And so that probably seems archaic compared to having an app on your phone and just doing that. And so as our archaic as that was, this is gonna be archaic that you even have to go to an app on your phone. I view it as a continuation of the continuum of being able to filter white noise and giving you the data that you want.

Jeff Bullas

00:40:00 - 00:40:05

Yeah, and get to an answer faster and also a better answer faster.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:40:06 - 00:40:12

Right, well, the better answer was there, you would have just had to filter through a lot of stuff to get to it. I mean, we're saying the same thing but I'm just, my thing is whatever you find it was, it would have been there anyway. But what would you have done to get to it?

Jeff Bullas

00:40:23 - 00:40:53

Yeah, exactly. Before it was the library. Okay. And then you found that the book had been taken out for the next two weeks, there was only one in the library and you go damn it. I really, I've got, and then the excuse would be to the teacher. Sorry, I just can't get the book to do the research. Then we got the browser, you know, in the mid 1990s, right? And they were crap back then. Seriously. It took you to page 20 to find the right information that you were looking for.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:40:54 - 00:41:00

Yeah. So can we just say that it's just evolution of the same path?

Jeff Bullas

00:41:01 - 00:41:26

Exactly. I totally agree with you. Any, so what was some of the biggest challenges have you had that you've been hit over the head with that challenge you as a business person, as a person, you know, on your entrepreneurial journey, what's some of the biggest challenge or a big challenge that you had to deal with that It was hard and entrepreneurs need to think about?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:41:26 - 00:43:26

I think building culture, I think I never fully understood how much you have to invest in building culture. You know, the culture in certain organizations is not as important, but if you're an entrepreneur and your startup culture is everything like again, I, if you worked at the post office or what have you, I mean, the culture is important but they're not trying to light the world on fire and you know, take things to the next level, there's certain fields and jobs where you just need to do a good job. And so that culture is important, but it just has just to be a friendly environment, professional, but not this culture of like we have to innovate and improve and provide better quality every day. That's a never ending journey. That kind of culture has to be, it has to come from the leaders because if the leaders can't enroll people in that vision, then it's not no one else will. So people don't naturally get the vision. It's really incumbent on the leader often by example, you know, but also by insisting on it and hiring for that, right? So you don't, I would much rather hire someone who is coachable and all bought in than someone with a lot of experience. You know, who's very proficient but, you know, is not as coachable and is not as bought. You know, it's more of a job for them so that intangible things can be the make or break often for a lot of companies. And I know it was probably for us too, if we had not identified, you know, leadership and nurtured that leadership and invested time in that leadership.

Jeff Bullas

00:43:27 - 00:43:38

So what I'm hearing is that you, it sounds like that the leader needs to have a vision that he can communicate effectively to bring everyone with him.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:43:39 - 00:45:34

Yeah, you're, it's the greatest sales job you'll ever have to do because if people think you're not in it to win it or if you're not, you know, if something happens, something horrible happens at nine o'clock at night and you're not reachable and, you know, you turn off your cellphone after work and, you know, it doesn't mean you need to work, you know, necessarily more than 40-50 hours a week. But if you're detached or, you know, if you need a, you know, massive office the first, you know, year of your business and, you know, all just there's queues, you know, that, you know, that you can send that, you know, like, one of the things that I did really early on is, you know, like I would always answer the phone and just to send the message. So if the phone rang more than once or twice, I would pick it up and I would literally be the receptionist. I book an appointment, I'd do anything and, you know, things like that sent the message. Oh my gosh, you know what? We're not gonna let the phone ring more than once or twice because they didn't like that I picked it up. It bothered them. Like, why is he picking up the phone? I mean, why is he like literally picking up the phone and booking appointments, answering questions and, and you know, when you're small and starting out, you got to send the message that listen no one's above it, no one's below it. I'm taking out the garbage, you're taking out the garbage, you know, we're, we, you know, that's, and it can't be just a fake message. You got to really believe that doesn't matter who you are. You know, I'm signing for the packages, you're signing for the packages and, you know, we're, you're doing inventory, I'm doing inventory. You, everyone does everything and you're always, you know, available ideally, you know, within reason, and, you know, if you're not always available, if you're not always thinking about the business, why would somebody else do it?.

Jeff Bullas

00:45:35 - 00:46:46

Yeah, I totally agree. And, I had an experience recently where there was a major problem, and I then contacted, you know, four of my staff and they all responded within 30 minutes and it was after hours and I went, you know what must be doing something a little bit right in that they all leaned in. So that was, I was impressed. I went, wow, and, so it's important to, yeah, have the vision and be able to communicate the vision and then bring people with you and let them get on with their jobs as well. I spoke to one on the podcast a while back and he said that he was having a, he was having a customer, I mean, an employee churn rate of less than six months to 12 months. And he admitted that he was telling his experts that he'd hired what to do all the time was managing them, micromanaging them. And an HR friend said, let me see what you're doing and said you got to let them do their job, trust them to do their job. And since then he's had staff out for 6-7 years.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:46:46 - 00:47:00

Right, now you literally have to delegate and step aside. And besides, there's not enough of you to go around because if you're busy doing that, you're not doing the big vision thing then

Jeff Bullas

00:47:00 - 00:47:07

So you can scale if you get the right people and have great technology to help you scale as well.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:47:07 - 00:47:12

I think you just wrapped it up after those two things are the key.

Jeff Bullas

00:47:13 - 00:47:23

Well, let's use that as our wrap up. But well, great to chat, Jonathan. It's been an absolute pleasure. How many staff do you have now?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:47:24 - 00:47:37

Between all our companies? We're probably over 50 but then we have, you know, contract out with attorneys and even an outside developer. So it's way beyond that when you look at the whole team.

Jeff Bullas

00:47:37 - 00:48:14

Yeah, that's fantastic. And that's why I love where an entrepreneur comes up with an idea and then it manifests it into this, you know, ecosystem and tribe and a business like you've done, which is, you know, and hats off to you. Because everyone who's been an entrepreneur knows that it's not an easy path. It's quite often a lonely path. And it's tough at the top. So what's the future for what you're doing is in terms of as being a medical provider and business? What do you have?

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:48:14 - 00:49:00

Yeah, I mean, we were rolling out some new technology on our drug testing side that even our competitors can jump on the platform and use to run their companies with eNational Testing, which we just rolled out last month that gives people access to any, you know, almost any medical test. A lot of medical testing in all 50 states, we have like 4000 labs contracted out with us in literally in every state, every city and you're three clicks away from ordering almost any test you want and literally walking in, having it done and getting the results in your portal so that we just rolled that out. So we're, you know, just doing a push on that. And, you know, we're gonna keep our foot on the gas on technology.

Jeff Bullas

00:49:00 - 00:49:19

Right. Well, thank you very much for sharing your insights, Jonathan Baktari. It's been an absolute pleasure. And if I'm ever in Las Vegas, you never know. I won't be there for gambling. It'll just be for maybe take another helicopter flight over the Grand Canyon, which I did last time.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:49:20 - 00:49:25

Yeah, a lot of people do that. It's a lot of fun. Well, we're more than happy to host you. Let me know when you're coming out.

Jeff Bullas

00:49:25 - 00:49:33

I will. And, yeah, that was a fun trip, by the way. It was with 7-6 drunk Englishmen that were celebrating their 40th birthday.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:49:33 - 00:49:36

Oh, yeah. Okay. You were the rowdy ones I heard about.

Jeff Bullas

00:49:37 - 00:49:50

Well, I'm Australian so I was with these Englishmen. So it was worth the price of admission to seeing these drunk Irish. Well, English people suffering on a flight.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:49:50 - 00:49:53

Oh, no.

Jeff Bullas

00:49:53 - 00:50:00

I won't go into detail but it was a lot of fun anyway. I'm sure you could have helped them with your health services at the end.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:50:01 - 00:50:01

Next time.

Jeff Bullas

00:50:02 - 00:50:09

Okay, thanks Jonathan. Absolute pleasure. Have a great, great day, rest of the day and look forward to catching up in real life one day.

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

00:50:10 - 00:50:13

Alright, I'd love that. Take care. Bye bye.