Will EVs Kill the Stick Shift Car? - Slashdot

Posted by EditorDavid

• ›

  Yes (Score:5, Insightful)

  by jmccue ( 834797 ) on Sunday March 31, 2024 @07:43AM (#64358370) Homepage

  I have been driving manual for most of my life, and yes I like it much better. In the winter it get much better control in slippery conditions. But:

  I think there is is no need for a transmission for EVs. I remember reading about this long ago about how electric vehicles 100+ years ago claimed that as an advantage. Do modern EVs have a transmission ? I kind of doubt it.

  • Re:Yes (Score:5, Interesting)

    by burtosis ( 1124179 ) on Sunday March 31, 2024 @07:48AM (#64358376)

    I have been driving manual for most of my life, and yes I like it much better. In the winter it get much better control in slippery conditions. But:

    I think there is is no need for a transmission for EVs. I remember reading about this long ago about how electric vehicles 100+ years ago claimed that as an advantage. Do modern EVs have a transmission ? I kind of doubt it.

    EVs have a transmission of sorts, a single gear reduction typically around 4-1. This is because direct drive would require more torque, and thus current and magnetic field density that makes current designs sub optimal. This is possibly changing with modern axial flux motors that are able to more effectively utilize magnetic field density and currents in a small package while also retaining the efficiency and wide operational speed range. It’s important because already dual motor EVs offer complete isolation and torque balance between front and rear, something that costs a lot extra in single engine designs. Further, designs are moving to each wheel having its own motor which allow for precise computer traction control and performance that are simply not feasible due to size and weight constraints using a single engine.

  • Re:Yes (Score:5, Interesting)

    by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Sunday March 31, 2024 @07:59AM (#64358396)

    Do modern EVs have a transmission ? I kind of doubt it.

    Not transmissions per say, but some EVs do get creative with their drive systems. Teslas for example change which wheels are driven depending on if you're accelerating or just cruising.

    There is talk about a 2 speed gearbox though on performance cars (reads racing) to allow for a greater top speed. But that's sort of not relevant for road cars, and most EVs on the market these days are electrically speed limited which is why you get something like a Polestar 2 standard with 200kW motors, and the Polestar 2 dual motor performance edition with 350kW both have 205km/h top speed but wildly different accelerations and torque figures.

    • Re:

      I believe the Porsche Taycan has a two speed transmission. I think it is 'automatic' in operation but does not need a torque converter or clutch since it is coupled with an electric motor.
      
      The dual motor Tesla's are kind of 2 speed in as much as the front and rear motors are different types and gearing. The rear motor is more configured for acceleration whereas the front motor is configured for efficient cursing.

      • • by skam240 ( 789197 ) on Sunday March 31, 2024 @11:34AM (#64358748)

          Ha, sounds like this white trash neighbor I had years ago. Full grown adult man that who couldn't go a sentence without saying "fuck".

        • Re:

          ... angry motorists locking horns...

  • I think there is is no need for a transmission for EVs. I remember reading about this long ago about how electric vehicles 100+ years ago claimed that as an advantage. Do modern EVs have a transmission ? I kind of doubt it.

    Porsche's Tycan has a two speed transmission [caranddriver.com] for performance and range. Most, however, have a single ratio gearbox.

  • Same. I live in the mountains, where there's snow half the year. When I go down the main road, I stick it in 3rd and don't touch the accelerator or brakes for 15 minutes. I don't care about vintage or 'sport' anything, it's just safe and convenient.
    And same thing when going up on very slippery road, you don't want a sudden shift change that make you lose traction.
    But yeah, EVs will get rid of that, oh well, I'll see when I get there.

    • Re:

      In a good automatic transmission car, one can tell the gear box to stay in low gear. So this way of driving is not exclusive to manual transmission.

      • Re:

        I've tried it on a rental, and it kept going into the red zone without slowing the car down noticeably. But maybe it was more due to diesel vs gas car.

        • Re: Yes

          Probly the box wasnt locked. So the slushbox was taking the feedback forces rather than the engine.

      • Re: Yes

        With an EV and regenerative braking, doing that will actually charge your battery all the way down the hill. Depending on the length of the downhill drive, you could get a significant charge that way.

  • I learned to drive a stick after buying my second car, which had one, and I've stayed with manual transmissions ever sense, teaching my daughters how to drive them. I live in New England, and they give me better control on slippery roads and ice, as well as the feel of having better control of the car. I like that, and it keeps my mind on the road.

    Which may be the best argument for keeping stick shifts. You can't shift gears with one hand on the stick the other on your phone -- at least for very long. You're likely to end up wrapped around a tree or a light pole. Would that be a case for outlawing automatic transmissions except in fully self-driving cars?;-)

    • Re:

      A manual transmission certainly forces you to keep your hands free, but my personal experience was that constantly having to deal with yet another aspect of operating the vehicle was itself, a distraction. Some people do claim that eventually it becomes second nature, but I never got there with any manual I've ever driven. I was always thinking about what need to do next with the damn transmission.

      Buddy of mine has driven stick for years and the last time I rode with him he stalled out at a light because

  • Re:

    For most people some of the time, and for just about everyone some of the time, modern automatic transmissions will perform better than they would with an ICE vehicle. But no matter how good any automatic transmission is, the one thing it will never be able to do is read your mind about what you *intend* to do next. So there will always be situations with an ICE vehicle where you'd rather have a manual or semi-automatic than an automatic.

    That doesn't apply to electric motors, which produce nearly peak torq

• I don't mean they lack the fun of going out and touring the landscape by itself, but the actual act of driving the machine.

  Until I gave up owning a car a few years ago, I always drove secondhand cars that gave me a sense of pride of owning something that had original style (not wind tunnel designed same-shape-different-brand) and needed a bit of skill to drive them well (youngest car I owned was a 1996 Alfa Romeo 164 Q4).

  Those now antique cars involve you in driving and not make you feel detached from them

• TFS says there's something authentic about being connected to the car without automation. But really two things:
  a) You're not connected to your car without automation. Even manual cars have all manner of traction control and other systems that automate the experience between your foot and the wheels.
  b) And Automatic transmission decouples you from the wheels. An EV does not. Just because there's no transmission doesn't make driving an EV any less authentic.

  EVs don't have the downsides of automatics. There's no benefit to manuals over EV. All the talk vs automatics where you have better control of the power going to your wheels doesn't apply to EVs.

  I've been driving manual all my life. I hate automatic transmissions. They seem to do nothing but stupid things, picking wrong gears, not switching and providing performance when I need it, or doing so when I don't. I now drive an EV and it's undeniably better than both screwing around with manual and dealing with shitty automatics.

  Sidenote: Why am I not surprised that Toyota, a company that infamously is an EV non-believer is releasing something stupid that serves no purpose.

  • Re:

    "And Automatic transmission decouples you from the wheels. An EV does not."

    Bruh, have you driven a Tesla? The disconnect lies in the STEERING WHEEL. You do NOT feel the road (outside of the bumps and judders you get from the shitty tire/shock combo Teslas use.) You get no real feedback.

  • Re:

    Firstly I agree with you on all points. The only thing that may be taken as negative about BEVs is you don't need as much skill to drive one. My BEV has near 500hp yet I can pretty much floor it wet or dry, straight or corners and it will mostly behave, whereas all the ICE cars I have own have demanded respect about where and how you use the power, even the low power ones. So for some people that would take some of the fun out of driving. The flip side is BEVs are much safer.
    
    Actually my BEV does have

  • Re:

    Couple of things. You can turn off traction control, but you can't turn off an automatic transmission (leaving out in between tech like Ford's SelectShift). Also, no manual transmission driver can shift faster than a dual clutch automatic transmission. That being said, I wouldn't trade my Mustang six speed manual for an auto.

• there's apparently a young (also predominantly male) demographic that is embracing manual driving — championing it as retro, much like Gen Z's affinity to typewriters and vintage cameras.

  Ok. But:

  [Automatic vehicles] chalk up better mileage and drive faster than their stick-shift counterparts. The explanation: automatics select the right gear for the vehicle, usually the highest gear possible. The average manual driver is not always so proficient.

  So let me get this straight, people who love retro things, renown for their inefficient use compared to modern solutions, and who love to floor it and play with a physical transmission are going to care about a percent or two in efficiency? When the costs of making an automatic transmission results in more greenhouse gasses up front and these are the people who are going to be flooring it everywhere and get poor mileage anyway?
  
  The costs of modern computer run automatics still can’t beat a driver that shifts with the best mileage in mind, this can simply be displayed as when and how to shift, a decades old technology. What this is about is limiting people’s right to choose, and in places like Europe and elsewhere, be required to pay more money for a car that cost more in a never ending car cost bloat. The average new car in America is nearly 49k now ffs. What we need are engineering decisions and better marketing, or at the very least be honest and not false frame the argument for internet outrage clout.

  • Re:

    You are right, for goid drivers ( i assume you count yourself as one), but average milage and emissions (for that all important epa cert) has to be based of avarage drivers an tge automation wins burely on consistency
• The reason many of us prefer a manual gearbox for a petrol engine is because it provides more control. Petrol engines have to operate in a limited RPM range which is why they need a gearbox to cover the range of speeds of a vehicle plus you need the ability to switch to a low gear to act as a retarding mechanism when going down hill. Having an automatic means that the car is making the decision when to switch gears for you hence the lack of control.
  
  EVs do not have this limitation so you have the same degree of control without the need for a gearbox. Going out of your way to effectively add a gearbox back in is just stupid because now it means that you are taking control away from the driver by somehow limiting the engine power artificially when you are in the wrong fake-gear for a given speed.
  
  However, Betteridge still applies: manual transmission will still exist for petrol engines and, even though these may become rare and not the everyday vehicles of choice I doubt they are ever going to entirely go away like horse-drawn carriages, vinyl records etc.

  • Re: Control is What Matters

    But i thought ev owners liked acceleration. Rather than put a 4:1 gear through all the ranges you are still going to accelerate faster if you have an 8:1 gear on the low end.

  • Re:

    Gearboxes have moved on from the hydraulic oil mechanical valve gear shifting of the 1970s. Modern computer controlled automatic gearboxes have more speeds than a manual box so can keep them in the right engine range for longer and can account for that and better than a human can. They'll change gear earlier in eco mode to ensure a higher load on the engine to give you better economy, they'll keep it in the power band range in performance mode to give you the fastest acceleration. My 44 tonne truck has an a

  • Re:

    Having an automatic means that the car is making the decision when to switch gears for you hence the lack of control.

    No you don't lack control. An automatic transmission certainly can and should be downshifted for control on long steep grades. Don't they teach that in driver training class anymore? I don't know of any current car that does not have this ability. There are several mountain roads in the US with signs instructing drivers to downshift to prevent brakes from failing. I remember some controv

• Much of this topic is a false dilemma. Thereâ(TM)s no reason to stop making manual transmissions. Want an EV car? Buy it. want a standard transmission? Buy it. automatic? Buy it. CVT? Buy it. A big part of the problem is that sales hype and cost are deep in the equation. CVT was supposed to be the perfect transmission. Infinite ratios, no wasteful shift points, etc. In fact, I have whatâ(TM)s probably one of the most heralded sedans in production, and it has fake shift points in the CVT. And th

  • Re:

    The thing is that as ICE vehicles are phased out manual transmissions vehicles will disappear over an even faster timeline. Right now they make manual transmissions for a small minority of drivers, how many auto makers are going to keep making them though when the numbers of ICE drivers starts getting low and become a minority in terms of market presence? There's not a lot of money in catering to a minority group (manual transmission fans) within a minority group (ICE drivers).

• ... Video Killed the Radio Star:)
• LOL. A fittingly humiliating end to egomaniacal driving. There will likewise be custom noisemakers attached to future EV models so that idiots can rev nonexistent engines. I applaud and eagerly await the arrival of these "Napoleon complex placebo" technologies so I can make fun of everyone who pays for them.

  • Re:

    They're already here, I saw an electric Mustang making noise like there was a Cherry Bomb on the non-existent exhaust.

    People are stupid.

    • Re:

      Also the new Abarth. So silly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

• If nothing else, any time I've purchased a new car, the manual transmission package was always cheaper for example.

  I also prefer manual transmission, except when I don't (such as driving on exceptionally steep hills, and in stop and go traffic). In my case it's just what I'm used to. But I think it far fetched to get a fake shift thing to pretend I'm driving manual. I'd rather save my money and hum acceleration sounds uncomfortably loud to my passengers every time I accelerate.

• How do you do a burnout with an ev? Its it even possible? That's one of the most fun things to do with a powerful cat.

  • Re:

    You can if the speed controller has been programmed to allow it.

  • Re:

    Like this: https://www.youtube.com/shorts... [youtube.com]

    Probably possible in an MG4 XPower if for some reason you don’t have the spare $2m for a Rimac Nevera

  • Re:

    Please stop burning your cats. That's animal cruelty.

• is not always the correct gear I can be going fast enough to shift up from 3rd to 4th but lose traction or wait a bit longer and then go up a gear and everything is smooth,
• As much as manuals are fun, cars are tools and most people barely tolerate driving in the first place. Besides, as much fun as rowing gears is, the strong acceleration and regen braking on a performance EV is absolutely better. And we should encourage this transition and support things like safe and inviting sidewalks, cycleways and transit people actually want to and will use. Because the more people who aren't driving, the easier it is for the rest of us to enjoy driving.

  • Re:

    In your opinion cars are tools. Other people have the opinion that cars are toys.

    • Re:

      Tell me you didn't read my whole comment without saying you didn't read my whole comment.
• Not buying CNN's line that autos are better. The lag off the line can be terrible and with small engines, less than 1500cc normally aspirated, autos give a terrible driving experience compared with a manual, having an acceleration so slow it pisses of other motorists.
  
  I have owned many manual cars over the last 46 years, but only one auto. It was a huge mistake that I swear to never make that mistake again. Manuals are lot of fun here in New Zealand as we have very few long straight roads, but plenty o

• Not mentioned here is that the lack of a complicated gearbox in an EV eliminates the need for maintenance and potential problems of a transmission.

  I get that manual transmissions are fun. I suspect more EV manufacturers will adjust to include them if the market is large enough. I do hope that there's some room for engineering types and gearheads to have something to play around with in an EV-only future. As it is now, what sort of mechanical tinkering is possible with current EVs? Motor modifications? Wei

  • • Re:

      Your post is about 99.9% factually incorrect. EVs have fewer moving parts and massively lower maintenance requirements.

      The only thing you need to worry about in terms of lifetime for an EV is the battery - depending on the battery the car comes with, you can expect around 320,000 km out of it. For most people, that will fall into the 10-20 year range. If you're a car fanatic or do a lot of driving, you're probably leasing and changing vehicles every 3-5 years anyway.

      • Re: Maintenance

        Unfortunately youâ(TM)re wrong on the maintenance cost thing. Yes, the main drive train of most EVs are absolutely bulletproof, and nowadays the battery pack is likely to outlast the car body. But reliability problems with the electronics drags the costs up. Its been well documented. One failure of that damn 28 inch touchscreen and you can be looking at the equivalent cost of a transmission replacement. This issue will be fixed as manufacturing reliability improves for whats still a new product class.

        • Re:

          Nah. Complete bollocks. Possibly true with a Tesla, but I’ve had three Renault Zoes and the only maintenance issue I’ve ever had was a faulty AC fan, which was literally a part also present in ICE Renaults. My experience is completely typical for EV ownership. Apart from that, it’s cost me 90 quid a year for an annual service where they change the cabin filter, top up the washer fluid, check the tyres, and check the battery is fine (the battery is always fine).

        • Re:

          There's nothing inherently EV-specific about that gripe.
          You'll be pleased to know that even some modern ICE cars now have gigantic electronic displays on the dash these days. I only expect more of that in the future.

    • Re:

      Uh... The year 2000 is calling for their talking points back.

      Right now, the main limit on EV age is that you haven't reached a steady state for them - they're expanding, production increasing, and most of the cars haven't aged out yet. IE not a lot of EV owners have had to replace them yet.

      And yes, things have gotten better with time. The batteries can charge faster and last longer while being a fraction of the price of even a decade ago.

• "It’s not just that I cringe at the grating screech of a botched downshift, that high-pitched sequel worse than fingernails across a chalkboard. The sound upbraids and shames me for having wronged the drivetrain. But this obviously never happens to alpha men, the kind who love their engines and coax them to purr."

  This was where I stopped reading. All credibility is lost

  The best three cars in my history were all stick shift. Loved them. Miss them.

• Of course. There's no need for a gearbox in an EV, so any sort of transmission that relies on changing gear ratios is pointless.

  I currently drive a stick-shift and I enjoy it for completely irrational reasons. I know it doesn't save fuel. I know I'm not "more connected" to the car. I just like having more to do when driving; keeps me alert and engaged more.

  Maybe if I ever get an EV, I'll go for one with a fake stick-shift just for fun. It depends on the cost.

• Like Gentoo is a meme Linux distro, sure its usable but its a loser that's more trouble than its really worth, soon they will find a clean/cleaner fuel for internal combustion engines and EVs will either disappear completely or just become a niche used only for local transportation around congested cities where exhaust is a problem

  • Re:

    Are "they" going to repeal the laws of thermodynamics also?

• There have been very few automatic motorcycles.
  Hondamatic (I think hydrostatic)
  Rokon (snowmobile)
  Husqvarna (4 speed automatic)
  Some have CVT transmissions
  Honda (Z50) was clutch less but you still shifted
  There are auto clutches for dirt bikes (Rekluse, others)
  And electric motorcycles are single speed

  EV on motorcyles has a limit. Weight greatly affects handling so you can't just add more batteries. You'll probably never see a hybrid.

• If you want to have the most fun then you either want an EV with no shifting or an ICEV with as much shifting as possible, depending on what you're into.

  If you want maximum efficiency you want an EV or an ICEV with a CVT.

  If you want maximum reliability you want an EV or an ICEV with a stick.

  If you want maximum control you want an EV or an ICEV with a stick.

  If you want the fastest shifts you want either an EV (with no shifting, can't get faster than that) or a DCT. The third best thing, surprisingly, is a really good automatic.

  If you want maximum convenience you want an EV or an ICEV with a CVT.

  There is a real problem with CVT reliability, most of them are poop.

  There is a real problem with EV range in some conditions, it can be a dealbreaker depending on your situation.

  It's interesting how many of these cases are best solved with an EV, though.

• There us no need for it in an EV, so yes it will kill the stick shift car. But they will always remain as people like to keep vintage stuff alive. Adding shift stick to an EV, just for the sake of it, would be silly as it would also make the car more complex and vulnerable to more maintenance and breakdowns, as the more you put into the car, the more can break. I like my shift gear '96 Jeep Cherokee 2.5s, and have always driven a shift stick car, as they are cheaper in our country, but I won't mind if my ne

  • Re:

    >Adding shift stick to an EV, just for the sake of it, would be silly as it would also make the car more complex and vulnerable to more maintenance and breakdowns, as the more you put into the car, the more can break

    Have you ever heard of 'autostick'? They actually added the option to manually up and down shift to an automatic transmission - which would override your wishes if it thought you were wrong, of course.

    There are still EVs out there with multi-speed transmissions, and I can see this being adde

• Mechanical vehicles are an impediment to remote control.

  Drive-by wire with a data feed and kill switch is required for 2026 and beyond vehicles. Good luck outrunning corrupt cops. They're banning petrol vehicles in 'urban zones' first. A tariff already exists for them at busy times.

  This is all incremental. CNN's job is to excuse and distract. Where did Cooper and Blitzer get trained again?

  I'm not even against electrics - just the ones for sale.

  Maybe China will market something practical.

  • Re:

    While I don't like the idea of remote control and remote kill switches for cars for both philosophical reasons and because there is too much risk of hackers / attackers messing with cars in mass,

    for how many people is the need to outrun a corrupt cop a use case? Where and what kind of world do you live in?

• What would really help the adoption of EV is if the motors made the sound that the Jubilee Line trains make in London. They use AC motors fed from the same DC source that other underground trains use, but the switching of the thyristors (it was a moment in time when it was the technology of choice) makes this wonderful whooping sound as the train accelerates.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

  • Re:

    I think the Carice is pretty good on that front:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    It’s not the Jubilee, but if i have to go from Finchley Road to Dollis Hill, I think I’d still prefer to be in a Carice, despite the 20mph limits and the traffic.

    • Re:

      Excellent - I do subscribe to the channel but I missed that one. Love the whine - now that's what I am talking about.
• I was late in learning to drive a stick shift and now that I am getting much much older I tend to go with my automatic especially when in heavy traffic. However, there have been a number of instances reported in the media of another really nice advantage of having a stick shift.
  
  Most car jacking attempts are by males that are in their teens or early twenties and I really get a good laugh when I see or read of then attempting to car jack a stick shift. Most can not drive them !

• The explanation: automatics select the right gear for the vehicle

  Hahahahahaha...

  You obviously haven't driven my 2008 Dodge Caliber with its CVT.

• In a EV car you can get away without a transmission. In a truck I have my doubts. Getting torque at low speed requires high currents. That will heat the motor windings quickly, I-squared R losses are a bitch. A locked motor burns up quick. That's why they have thermal overloads.

  Industrial Variable Frequency Drives have a variety of settings to use to get more torque at low rpm without burning up the motor. But the ability to do this is limited. It works for starting conveyor belts or for pulling a boat out

  • Re:

    Currently EV trucks only use 1 gear. I checked the specs of European and Asian models: 1 tonne payload -- Mercedes eSprinter, Renault Master ZE, Citroen Berlingo, Nissan e-NV200; 7.5 tonne payload: Mitsubishi FUSO eCanter.

    However, sportscars may have a transmission with 2 gears, such as the Porsche Taycan. It's managed by the computer, so no "stick", it just switches when you reach certain speeds.

  • Re:

    The ability for an F-150 Lightning, or Rivian, or Cybertruck, to beat ANY conventional truck in a drag race while towing 10,000 lbs indicates that your concerns are overstated. EV trucks aren’t thermally-limited. The only limitation electric trucks have over conventional trucks is range.
    
    As to your final question: it is possible to run into regen problems when the batter is full. That could really only happen if you fully charge the EV at the top of a hill, then regen on the way down. Car compani

  • Re:

    Answer to your question is “yes, in theory, you do. In practice, a decent EV blends the regen and physical braking together so seamlessly that you can’t easily tell which is which in the first place, and the battery management system is there to think about when regen is helpful or not so that you don’t have to”

  • Re:

    I believe the general answer to this is "yes". For the Chevy Bolt the answer is "yes". Early versions of the Bolt had a configuration setting called "hilltop reserve mode", which limits the maximum charge to 90% so that there is a "reserve" in the battery to store the energy from regenerative braking. Current models let you limit the max charge to an arbitrary value, but don't call it "hilltop reserve" anymore.
    
    Limiting your max charge of course limits your range. Other than leaving room for regeneration, y

• After reading a lot of these comments there seems to be some consensus that with manual you get more "control" and "connection to the car" that will somehow be of benefit in slippery conditions and whatnot.

  No you don't. Not unless your car is 20+ years old. All the "manual" cars these days have traction controls, ESPs, limiters (so you can't even blow your engine by going downhill in first gear). Technically you can try burning rubber by revving the engine and releasing the clutch - but not really, unless y

  • Re:

    For manual driving, "connected" is mis-interpreted here.
    
    By connected, manual drivers really mean that they are more connected to the current driving situation. You need to really pay attention to traffic and anticipate what gear to shift to. Will traffic come to complete stop or slow then speed up quickly? Will you break using break pedal, or just use the downshift? You must read the traffic around you carefully. In an automatic, you don't pay as much attention.
    
    I think this is something that isn't just

    • Re:

      Well...when driving EV, at least for me the "anticipation" is adjusting recuperation level (my car has five different settings, from 0-1-2-3-B, where 0 is coasting and B is, well, maximum that doesn't engage brakes), depending on situation.

      Or on highways, just go with adaptive cruise control.

• I drive a manual car - not sure we call them "stick-shift" in the UK, we just call them manual - and the stick-shift we call the gear lever.

  It's all I've ever known, in 36 years of driving. I have never actually driven an automatic.
  My wife switched after 40 years of driving and she's fine with automatic - I guess it helps it's a fancy SUV work issued stupidly expensive vehicle.

  I really don't care about this aspect of cars, I worry about more and more tech in cars - tech that "phones home" or "adds security"

  • Re:

    Isn’t it pretty normal for a car to give you a few seconds or minutes of grace when you drive at low speed before you start getting beeped at about seatbelts? My three Renault Zoes have all worked like this. I’m also based in the UK.

• It's hard to take these types of submissions seriously when they are obvious hit pieces to demonize something that is considered 'bad'. Then the posters here come out in force to talk about these 'evil', 'old', and 'legacy' technologies that need to go away as fast as possible, and anyone that still enjoys them is a dumb luddite that hopefully dies soon.

  
  
  Sometimes, it's best to just let people live their lives. A few people enjoying some v8 stick shift Mustangs are not going to ruin your world. A group that is going out camping and using firewood is probably putting more pollution into the atmosphere. Should they be made to feel bad just because they enjoy camping for a few days, vs. staying in a modern, well-insulated, smart home with fiber internet?

• EVs aren’t killing stick shifts, consumers and car companies did. It’s all there in the summary: manual transmissions have been a minority for decades, and today account for a tiny fraction of new car sales. Don’t blame Tesla, or regulators, or any other boogey-man: stick shifts would have been on the same declining trajectory regardless. Even if some people fancy themselves as Vin Diesel behind the wheel, most drivers are in fact not that skilled or concerned with performance or efficiency. Whatever the Slashdot crowd wants to say, most drivers are lazy: push the pedal, and the car goes. You want performance, just throw in a bigger engine and some traction control.
  
  It’s much like computing: although the Slashdot crowd bemoans bloated packages, efficient code, 640k is enough for anybody, command line is faster than GUI for “real” work.. At the end of the day, most end users could not care less, and will purchase a device with higher specs regardless, not caring if it actually does a better delivering YouTube than a machine from 5-10 years ago.
  
  I say this as someone who learned on a manual and drove stick exclusively for decades. (And still writes C code for microcontroller.) I enjoyed them. I still enjoy using them when traveling outside the US. I’ve taught my eldest child the basics of how to drive one. But some years ago I replaced my 2.0L stick shift daily driver for a 1.5L CVT hybrid, and cut my fuel usage in half overnight. My next car will be an EV. So it goes.

• [Automatic vehicles] chalk up better mileage and drive faster than their stick-shift counterparts. The explanation: automatics select the right gear for the vehicle, usually the highest gear possible. The average manual driver is not always so proficient. In getting the gear right, automatics consume less fuel, save money and emit fewer emissions.

  People don't prefer automatic vehicles because they have (had) better mileage. People prefer them because there's a cheaper upfront cost, and because they're more

  • Re:

    Manual feels like you're more in control (and you are), but I really don't understand the people who love it so much they want it even when the majority of their driving is urban in heavy traffic.

    • Re:

      Driving a manual is the car equivalent of listening to vinyl in that it's fun, something of a ritual and plenty of other esoteric reasons (which are all fine and valid) but their internet proponents have to be "100% superior in every way" because on the internet you have to fully justify everything even when there's no reason for it.

      In reality vinyl has it's advantages but the people saying it "sounds better" are just playing a game. Same for people who say manuals are "more efficient" when that fact has

• I was really curious about "Road transportation accounts for 15% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions, according to Our World Data,"
  as in, how much is applicable to personal vehicles such as the rest of this post-- 'cause "Road Transportation" might mean a lot of things this gearing discussion wouldn't be applicable to.

  So I follow the link

  "Road travel accounts for three-quarters of transport emissions. Most of this comes from passenger vehicles – cars and buses – which contribute 45.1%. The other 29.4% comes from trucks carrying freight.

  Since the entire transport sector accounts for 21% of total emissions, and road transport accounts for three-quarters of transport emissions, road transport accounts for 15% of total CO2 emissions."

  So-- how much of what is personal vehicles?

• Same thing is happening with manual transmissions.
  
  That's fine, have your fun but don't expect anyone else to want to drive something that is almost always outside the optimal power band and efficiency curve of the engine.

  • DEAD isn't completely gone

    It's manufacturing dead; the old cars will live on like zombies with a small number of people restoring them forever.

    Many silly people love stick shift and it may come back in a fad like vinyl records. Even if it's people modding their cars with hacks and video game stick shifts to bring back the analog feeling of extra cognitive load with all the decreased "benefits" that affords.

• If Gen Z loves retro and authentic so much, why don't they learn to write in cursive?

  Right, it has nothing to do with what they like, it has only to do with what is a fad, which is what they like by definition. Just like every other generation before them.

• A poor comparison: 8-speed automatic to a 6-speed manual.

• In Sweden there's an hatred for EV's.

  Many of my colleagues at work complain that there's no "soul" in new EV's. They feel like it's smartphones on wheels, and there's no end to their excuses on why you should never get an EV and it's a big scam, explodes, freezes in the winter, low range etc.

  When I talk with my coworkers (95 percent whom have regular ICE cars), they absolutely LOATHE EV cars, one of them passionately talks about the lack of smells like exhaust, gasoline and "real car feel", he likes the wro

• The way you can control weight transfer with a manual transmission by downshifting just right and using the clutch is not possible with automatics (even with sequential gearboxes).

  There's also the overdrive, going purposely on the wrong gear to get more torque to the wheels.

  In bad terrain, such as sand, mud, snow or ice, manual used right gives you a much better control of what your wheels are doing.

  Automatics and EVs have all sorts of modes to compensate for the loss of control (mud mode, snow mode, sport

• There will come a time when the rest of the developed world realizes the privileged folks who keep pushing EVs were too smug to realize that 80% of the world won't be able to use EVs because of shit electrical grids, and in fact most of the developed world won't have the energy infrastructure required for everyone to use them, including the less advantage (average) folks who can't afford them, a time when it is realized EVs won't save us. And by then because they have been trying to bury workable solutions we will all be fucked and doomed to extinction because they worked so hard to support people like Musk who is cynically playing this to be a billionaire, and we've run out of time to find actual solutions. Musk wants to go to Mars. Why would he actually care about Earth. The rest of the world that can't support EVs won't stop using ICEs until there is a solution that works for them.

• • Re:

    Having driven manuals since I learned to drive, I agree with you; in addition it is a great anti-theft device.

  • Re:

    And he knocks clear out of the park and into the next county, folks! Those of us who prefer the manuals like them for various reasons. But FUN is one of the primary ones. Most folks look at driving as a chore to get from point A to B. It's those folks that'll revel in self-driving cars. But fans of manuals will continue to enjoy the drive, even if it's commuting back and forth to work, or just running down the road to grab some groceries.

    Yes, kids, there are folks that enjoy driving.

    Back to the topic:

• • Re:

    Dude, you're talking about the country that invented the word Fahrvergnügen!

    You think the German Autobahn has no speed limit because they need to get to where they're going faster? C'mon.

  • Re:

    And yet these are the people who make BMWs and Porches, where the thrill of driving is definitely part of the sales pitch.

    I drive a BMW 330i. I got the sports package because I like the seats. It came with paddle shifters for someone who thinks they know when to shift better than the computer. I've used them exactly once just for fun. The computer is definitely better at shifting than I am.

    That said, there is something empowering and thrilling about having direct mechanical control over the engine, steering

  • • Most high end sports cars have automatics with two clutchs. The car is always in one gear, and has the next expected gear engaged but with the clutch disengaged. When it's time to switch, it just swaps the clutches.

      Not even in your wildest dreams can you switch gears faster than those transmission and certainly not as consistently.

      Drag cars tend to blow themselves apart in a couple runs. I suspect building a double clutch tranny that you have to replace every couple of runs is cost prohibitive - or against the rules in pretty much every class other than unlimited top fuel dragster.

      Formula 1 and Indy car transmissions are automatics with manual gear selection. They work somewhat like I just described. I'd bet a months pay neither you or anyone you've every known could shift any manual faster than the F1/Indy car shift itself.

      I prefer a manual, but pretending I'm faster than high performance fully electronicly controlled dual clutch systems is stupid. You aren't, period.

      • Re:

        The Youtube account Driver61 has a video about modern F1 gearboxes, and essentially the clutch is used to start, and in the pits, but on the track it is air shifters and momentary throttle automated tweaks to slide between gears.

        And they are VERY fast at shifting. Us mere mortals wouldn't get that, because in a daily driver, the transmission would be destroyed, but for a race car that has a finite time between major wrenching, it is fine. Also, apparently the clutch springs are super strong, and us mere mor

    • Re:

      Not possible [youtube.com] as this gearbox does gearc hanges with the period with no drive measured in single digit milliseconds, they can open and close in 2ms. It has already pre-selected a gear before you even go to change it. Performance auto boxes in more reasonable road cars can do a gear change in a couple of tenths of a second...whilst you're still moving your arm on a manual box the auto has already done the gearchange.. A human simply can't move fast enough to keep up.

• • If I coast backwards into you on a slope then you're too frelling close anyway and deserve it.

• • Re:

    1. I'd say around 2015 or so, you started seeing EPA mileage ratings being higher for automatics than manuals. This was around the time that automatics started having more gears than manuals - IE the manual has 5 forward, the automatic might have 8.
    2. They generally handle uphill/downhill just fine.

    I'll note that I don't have much experience with traditional automatics - I moved from a manual transmission to a hybrid with a CVT. The motor can patch over a lot of acceleration hesitation from the engine.

• • Re: Other Considerations

    Clutch replacement is t that expensive and only needs to happen 100,000 miles unless you abuse it. Tires will cost more

• • Re:

    You but you have to admit that isn't something more inherent to one transmission over the other, that is just familiarity, it's preference. To say otherwise is to make the argument manual drivers are "better" or "safer" than automatic drivers and I just don't think that is the case.

• • Re:

    Automatics used to be crap. Now they are most excellent. So, a stick shift is only if you like the fun of it. My Subaru even has a stick shift mode for its automatic. Maybe it could be useful in hilly country if you don't like when the car shifts on its own, except Subarus have a CVT.